White text on rich black background?

[wentworth]

Ive recently learned my lesson about using rich black instead of 100% black for text on a white background because of registration issues.
But i now have to create a booklet design where the back cover is all black and therefore needs to be rich black. It has a small amount of white text on it, some of it quite fine.

How do i prevent the mis-registration from the background making my white text look terrible? Im using Illustrator CS3. Any tips?

 

[wentworth]

actually the above may read wrong....but what i mean is, i used rich black for fine text and now realise i shouldn have!

 

[Amer]

It can be done, but it isn't easy. Try using a non-serif font (avoid light typefaces), and you have to trap the type to the background. The easiest way is to bring the Ai file into InDesign and use the trapping option there. The best way, of course, is to let the printer do it on the RIP if possible.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

If you are doing this in InDesign you can use a stroke on the text set to 100%k 1-2%C (or yellow) And set the stroke to "screen" or "lighter color" viewing separations you will see that you have black only for as much as you have the width of the stroke.

It is also possible to do a "soft trap" if you need an extreme miss registration control by using "outer glow" on the text with the "glow" in 100% K and 1-2% C or Y. Strictly speaking you do not need the small % C or Y but some RIPs are se to overprint 100%K and the small % will not be seen but will force knockout on the other colours.

The method can be used on any dark image and not just for rich black. If you have it on a dark image you may want to set the blend mode to "normal" rather than "Screen" but it will make a slight sharpening effect/shadow if the image is too light.

Some RIPS have a setting to do this in the RIP.

 

[PDL]

Here's another shameless plug.
Since you are using Illustrator download and try for free this trapping plugin for Ai called PowerTrapper. - DeskPack Modules: Tools for Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop . If your white text is set to knockout on your rich black then the result of the trap should be to pullback on the CMY (you set the distance) and let the K alone to define the text outlines, that way with any colour plate shifting you have a good chance of not seeing any of the CMY in the white area.

 

[mattbeals]

Rich black for fine text? How fine, serif or sans serif? Usually the trapping software should be able to pull back the CMY just enough. But it may end up pulling nearly all of it out depending on the trap width and the size/shape of the type.

 

[maynardsayswhat]

I've used the 0/0/0/100 stroke method as well with excellent results but I duplicated my text layer and stroked the under-layer version so that the stroke wouldn't be drawn along the center of the text shapes (leaving half the stroke "inside" the letterforms). Be sure your stroke is trapping and not simply overprinting.

So the basic order of layers from bottom to top is: Rich black, stroked text, regular text, guides.

This trick works great if you have reasonably simple layouts but can get a bit tricky if you have a lot going on. So be cautious before you start building 100 layer documents =)

Good luck!

Edit: Did I read that wrong? Are you setting your type in rich black? Or white text on a rich black background?

 

[naplajoie2000]

Depending on the weight of your white type, we white frame all fine type on dark backgrounds .0007 which helps the pressroom, and do a .003 3/c holdback. The results are good and the pressroom can have a chance of holding register - even the webs.

 

[wentworth]

one font is a thickish handwritten cursive type font and will be around 25pt if i recall correctly. But i still want it to be crisp white, so might need to trap this also? The other is Avante Gard sans serif in Light and will probably be 12pt and some in 10pt. I have absolutely no experience with trapping but have heard it mentioned before. Thanks for all the different methods. Ill give them a go. Im sure ill be back I dont really think i can rely on my printer much to help out on this one. He just shrugs or stares at me blankly most of the time when i ask him questions. Yeh i know, change printers!

 

[michaelejahn]

two layer white type solution

two layer white type solution

one font is a thickish handwritten cursive type font and will be around 25pt if i recall correctly. But i still want it to be crisp white, so might need to trap this also? The other is Avante Gard sans serif in Light and will probably be 12pt and some in 10pt. I have absolutely no experience with trapping but have heard it mentioned before.

Some folks might say this --> rich blacks should not be used on black fields with knockouts, or on white text under 48 pt.

I would tend to agree with them folks. But thats not up for debate here.

when you create a rich black, you only want the edge of the black to define the edge of white type. There are many ways to do this, and while most professional designers might steer away from knocking out 12 point or 10 point typefaces of any sort, most professional prepress systems can trap this handily - we sell iTrap to our Compose Express RIP customers and also - recently - we also sell PaSharp.

To me, this is a RIP and trap issue - this is the responsibility of the same person involved with dot shape, line screen and screen angles - but I will set that argument aside for another day.

So - you have a few choices - you can use Illustrator and create three (3) layers - the bottom is that ricj black object - place on copy of the white type above that rich black object - then duplicate that layer again.

the TOP most layer will be your white type, normall - no strokes.

on the type between the top and the bottom - stroke the type with 100 percent black only...

about .125 (so you can see what is happening, use a MUCH smaller amount on you art!)

no need to convert to outlines and fuss with the strokes.

when you place the white type on top, it knocks out the INSIDE section of the stroke (the stroke grows inward and outward along the edge of the type) - this of course means the outside part of the stroke - which is 100% black ONLY - Knocks out the rich black.

I attached a simple picture of this and attached this to this post - the left shows the three objects - using light grey for the white (so you can see it) and the medium light blue for the stroke. the middle shows the stroked tupe placed, the right with the un-stroked type on top.

Note how the stroke is cut off in half on the far right

--- or you can invest in a trapping application.

If I were you, i would never ever knock out white type from ANYTHING but a normal balck for ANYTHING smaller than 18 point. PERIOD. You are asking for big trouble, and this is not a 'fire the printer" moment, it is 'tell the designer to understand this is a problem.

Hope this helps !

I would be happy to send you a PDF

 

[wentworth]

thanks alot for that michaelejahn. Clear as day! As for the 0.125 stroke, how much smaller can the stroke be and still be effective?
Yeh i realise im probably playing with fire here....I will try and increase the text size a little but i dont think i have much room to play with.

 

[oxburger]

I don't think changing printers is the answer. Better education on your part might be the better route. For someone in print designing to have "have absolutely no experience with trapping but have heard it mentioned before" is actually kind of scary (although not unusual at all). Most people I encounter that have been trained in design don't even get taught the basics of printing. If this is going to be your career, you can't keep walking around blindly. It's only going to take time and more importantly money, to keep going back to fix any problem files. I encourage you to do some research on the topic (and any others that you may need exposure to) Although, I probably shouldn't be mentioning it, it does ensure job security on our end.......

 

[wentworth]

oxburger, your telling me to do exactly what im doing.
I spend a good part of my day researching and researching and researching.....i plan and plan so that i only have to do once, people tell me i plan too much, but i dont believe in too much planning...I made the comment about changing printers, not because of my problems with misregistration, but because when i ask him questions he acts damn cocky and doesnt even attempt to help. When my vector files print out pixelated he tells me it must of been how i sent them to him.. until i force him to check my files. When i ask him advice he shrugs..... He doesnt want to help...and all i ever read on these forums is "ask your printer, ask your printer". So if you cant ask your printer then i assumed i would be told to "change printers! So i was just beating people to the punch really.

As far as misregistration my printer was not the problem, as i stated it was my mistake. And nor will he be the problem if i stuff up the trapping.
Thanks to the people who've given me some great advice, and i will surely be doing test prints first.
No offence but you need to be less high and mighty. Knowledge comes with practice, research and asking people more experienced than you their advice, and boy have i learnt alot already!

 

[oxburger]

My apologies. Sounds like he's a real peach. I don't blame you for wanting to switch printers. For him to not even offer you a solution gives good printers bad names. I had no idea that it was that bad of a situation you were in. It sounds like he is the one who should be taking a class. My guess is that he's an old school printer unwilling, or unable, to adapt to new technologies. I applaud the fact that you want to advance. I didn't intend to sound high and mighty. I guess the situation you're in with your printer is similar to situations I've been in with designers. Luckily we have print planet as a sounding board for sharing ideas and solutions. Hope you get it worked out. Do you have other printers in your area that you can go to?

 

[DCurry]

I would certainly change printers. Your printer's prepress department should have caught your rich black type mistake and alerted you to it before printing. Are you dealing with a sales rep? You might get better answers if you can talk directly to the prepress operator, but if they didn't catch the rich black type you might not get much further.

As for trapping, yes you should have basic understanding and knowledge of what it is, but in general the actual trapping is (and should be) applied by the printer.

As a prepress operator for the last 15 years, I can tell you that I've never had a problem with knockout type over rich black. All the trapping apps I've used take care of creating a keepaway trap. The only area where some of them might fail to do so would be if you have knockout type over a Photoshop image and the image has a rich black. Some trapping solutions can't read the image values. You also won't get a trap if your knockout type is actually part of the aforementioned Photoshop image. Lastly, you may not get proper traps if the prepress operator doesn't have the trap parameters set correctly.

That's just based on my experience working in quality-oriented sheetfed shops - your mileage may vary depending on type of press and skill of the press operators.

 

[maynardsayswhat]

As for the 0.125 stroke, how much smaller can the stroke be and still be effective?

For 10pt Avant Guard Thin I'd not go much lower than 0p0.5 (half a point) stroke. Assuming the middle layer is stroked "centered on the path" that only gives a 0p0.25 black "aura" around the letterforms.

Also consider your substrate. 100# Index would need a larger "aura" than Gloss C2S, for instance (due to dot gain).

Why do you absolutely need a rich black? Are you worried about density of a large patch of black? Or is it a creative choice?

And any printer (really any business professional) who does not offer advice or options isn't worth your time. Business is about cooperation between specialists. Why bother with someone who doesn't cooperate to mutual benefit?

 

[michaelejahn]

Trapping "amount"

Trapping "amount"

thanks alot for that michaelejahn. Clear as day! As for the 0.125 stroke, how much smaller can the stroke be and still be effective?
Yeh i realise im probably playing with fire here....I will try and increase the text size a little but i dont think i have much room to play with.

naplajoie2000 already answered that question for you in his previous post.

he wrote;

Depending on the weight of your white type, we white frame all fine type on dark backgrounds .0007 which helps the pressroom, and do a .003 3/c holdback. The results are good and the pressroom can have a chance of holding register - even the webs.

of course - as I am sure others will agree - trapping is quite dependent on several factors, such as what you are print on substrate / paper wise or what you are printing with - for example - in flexo printing - the rapping rules are a little more complex to do using Illustrator tools alone - most of the pros invest in powerful tools like are sold by Esko, PaSharp, etc...

Hope this helps !

Respectfully,

Michael Jahn

Application Support Specialist
Compose Systems Inc.
4740 Northgate Blvd. Suite 100
Sacramento, CA 95834

Tel: (916) 920-3838
Fax: (916) 923-6776

Email: [email protected]
Web: Welcome to Compose!

 

[wentworth]

maynardsayswhat, yeh the rich black was chosen because it is a large area.
The paper is 80lb coated.

oxurger no dramas. The man im dealing with is sales/pre-press/the lot. At the moment this printer is the most convenient so i have put up with it but in the end good service/attitude will win out over convenience.

Well thanks everyone for passing on your experience, truly appreciate it.