Xerox 3100 VS KM 6100

[Gal]

Hello guys,
My name is Gal, i am from israel and we are running a printing factory include envelope manufacturing.
Untill this day we used the Canon C800 machine, good machine but we want to go forward.
So after doing some checkouts we have in our mind this two machines, basically what the companies offer us is kinda the same machine but the price is a game changer to the xerox machine.
Both are 100 pages speed, both have square booklet fold, KM with the IQ 501 and Xerox with his own thing that do the same.
We really dont know what to take, leave the money aside. Which machine will perform better?

 

[jwheeler]

Gal, I see these posts all the time asking which machine/vendor is better. These days, I think the big 4 names (Ricoh, Xerox, Canon, Konica Minolta) are all great when comparing models in the same category. They all have similar quality, sheet sizes, finishing options, controllers, and so on. There are some features that can make a big difference depending on what you run, like how Ricoh and Konica Minolta offer vacuum feed drawers, while Xerox and Canon have only friction feed with air assist. Either way, those in this forum that have a history with using Xerox will tell you to get the Xerox. Those with a history of using KM will tell you KM, and so on. What it usually comes down to as a differentiation is service. Ask around other print shops in the area and see how their service is. As your sales reps how many techs support your area. Ask what the average on-site response time is. You can get the best machine on the market, but if you don't have a good service tech and reasonable on-site response time, the brand doesn't matter when it's broken down and you need to get jobs out. Sometimes a dealer might have better support than direct, and vise-versa.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Xerox works well with EFI, another Israeli company. I would recommend looking into their workflow options.

 

[jwheeler]

Xerox works well with EFI, another Israeli company.

Not sure why you would choose Xerox over other vendors based on this fact. Every manufacturer works with EFI/Fiery controllers. Xerox is no different. They all offer the same add-ons such as Impose/Compose, Jobmaster, hot folders, etc.

 

[wonderings]

Can't speak for the KM but our Versant 2100 has been a rock solid machine. Consistent colour and great tools for calibration and alignment with the full width array have made my life much easier. A lot of it does come down to service though, we have great guys in our area, heard in other places it is not the same. A big bonus for us was the ability to print envelopes on our 2100. Can run #10 envelopes all day long with no jams, great colour and fast.... for digital. I would take your toughest files and try running jobs on both machines. Do not let the techs do it, insist that you do everything from start to finish and get a complete feel for how each machines handles and runs. Obviously they will both be pretty similar if they have CWS not he front end for the RIP. You will see how your files print and how it handles your tough stocks and tough colours.

We actually ran some live jobs on the machines we demoed.

 

[kdw75]

Can't speak for the KM but our Versant 2100 has been a rock solid machine. Consistent colour and great tools for calibration and alignment with the full width array have made my life much easier. A lot of it does come down to service though, we have great guys in our area, heard in other places it is not the same. A big bonus for us was the ability to print envelopes on our 2100. Can run #10 envelopes all day long with no jams, great colour and fast.... for digital. I would take your toughest files and try running jobs on both machines. Do not let the techs do it, insist that you do everything from start to finish and get a complete feel for how each machines handles and runs. Obviously they will both be pretty similar if they have CWS not he front end for the RIP. You will see how your files print and how it handles your tough stocks and tough colours.

We actually ran some live jobs on the machines we demoed.

We have been running our 2100 since 2014 and it is pretty reliable...now. Not so much the first year. One problem that still plagues our 2100 is excess toner build up on the sensors below the drum tray that read the patches on the IBT Belt. The machine runs pretty dirty and if you don't clean those every day or two, you start getting inaccurate colors.

 

[Gal]

Hello guys,
Thank you for the answes.
Before the Canon we had KM C1060 and we didnt really loved it, the envelopes runs BAD! and many many problems. This is why we changed to the Canon and now after the offer and the problems we had with the KM C1060 we dont know if you go with the KM or take a step and change with the xerox that we never worked with.

 

[jwheeler]

Gal, I didn't realize from your original posting that you were running the envelopes on the digital press. I don't think any of the sheet fed presses are ideal for envelope printing. They all have a kit or settings that allow envelopes to run, but not efficiently for long runs. I think your best bet is to get a dedicated digital envelope press like the Xante, or the Oki which have true envelope feeding hoppers that you can load on the fly and output stacking conveyors for continuous running. The paper path is also shorter and cleaner so you reduce the risk of creasing the envelopes and can handle smaller envelopes as well.

 

[wonderings]

Gal, I didn't realize from your original posting that you were running the envelopes on the digital press. I don't think any of the sheet fed presses are ideal for envelope printing. They all have a kit or settings that allow envelopes to run, but not efficiently for long runs. I think your best bet is to get a dedicated digital envelope press like the Xante, or the Oki which have true envelope feeding hoppers that you can load on the fly and output stacking conveyors for continuous running. The paper path is also shorter and cleaner so you reduce the risk of creasing the envelopes and can handle smaller envelopes as well.

The only thing that is not efficient about a 2100 running envelopes is the take up tray. Fills up in about 2 mins with #10 envelopes. Other then having to stand with it for the job it whips through them. I load up both high capacity trays and having it constantly running with no stops. One tray empty it moves to the other and I fill the empty one. I have not fully watched how many an hour I get but I would say it is around 2000 #10's an hour

 

[jwheeler]

I load up both high capacity trays and having it constantly running with no stops. One tray empty it moves to the other and I fill the empty one.

The fact that you can use multiple trays definitely helps. On the KM's, they limit you to running envelopes out of the bottom high capacity drawer since it's the straightest path. However, you can ask your tech to turn on a software switch that allows you to run from all 3 high cap drawers. They will just tell you that the top 2 are not officially supported. In the same way as the Xerox, you can load the other drawers while the machine is running.

 

[wonderings]

The fact that you can use multiple trays definitely helps. On the KM's, they limit you to running envelopes out of the bottom high capacity drawer since it's the straightest path. However, you can ask your tech to turn on a software switch that allows you to run from all 3 high cap drawers. They will just tell you that the top 2 are not officially supported. In the same way as the Xerox, you can load the other drawers while the machine is running.

We had a J75 with high cap tray. The J75 was a nightmare and Xerox eventually took it back and replaced it (on steep discount) with a 2100. I took the envelope bracket from the J75 high cap tray, otherwise I would be limited with only running from one tray without the bracket. Now if I could somehow print to the stacker tray that would make running it a dream as I basically cannot do anything else as it prints to fast and fills up to quickly.

 

[Gal]

Gal, I didn't realize from your original posting that you were running the envelopes on the digital press. I don't think any of the sheet fed presses are ideal for envelope printing. They all have a kit or settings that allow envelopes to run, but not efficiently for long runs. I think your best bet is to get a dedicated digital envelope press like the Xante, or the Oki which have true envelope feeding hoppers that you can load on the fly and output stacking conveyors for continuous running. The paper path is also shorter and cleaner so you reduce the risk of creasing the envelopes and can handle smaller envelopes as well.

Hey
We have Offset printing envelopes machine and also memjet for the digital, also we run on the Canon C800 envelopes.
The Xerox and Memjet have different qualities and sometimes i must print the envelopes on a higher quality machine.
Most of the envelopes i run is on the memjet, faster and sometimes easier.

Anyway we think we will go with the Xerox 3100 and they also offer us B/W machine the D125 with square booklet.
It looks that over the machine they offer us more support in softwares and tech guys around us.

 

[Kunnajar]

You could take a look of the Ricoh Pro C7210x (5 -colors) or C7210e (5 colors, which can be upgraded to 5 color machine).
You can run envelopes through the suction feed drawers and you can also print edge-to-edge.

 

[wonderings]

You could take a look of the Ricoh Pro C7210x (5 -colors) or C7210e (5 colors, which can be upgraded to 5 color machine).
You can run envelopes through the suction feed drawers and you can also print edge-to-edge.

You can print a full sheet with bleed on the Ricoh Pro C7210x? That is something I would definitely want in a printer. We can do that on our Epson 9900 and it is a huge time saver for some jobs. Had not heard of this feature being around for any digital press.

 

[kdw75]

You can print a full sheet with bleed on the Ricoh Pro C7210x? That is something I would definitely want in a printer. We can do that on our Epson 9900 and it is a huge time saver for some jobs. Had not heard of this feature being around for any digital press.

Several times our Xerox techs have been working on one of our machines and they will be running test sheets and they will flood a sheet with cyan and it will bleed on 3 sides. I usually make some comment about not knowing you could do that. They always just smile.

I suspect it could be done, but isn't because it makes a mess. We have bled envelopes on the press and the downside is ink getting on your backcylinder and possible tracking if not very careful. On the Epson, they have a pad and waste container that sucks up the overspray of ink.

 

[Kunnajar]

It won´t make a mess on the Ricoh Pro machines. There are 2 cleaners (others have 1) 1 on image transfer roll and 1 on the image belt. And you can run it full bleed on 3 sides.

 

[Brian Segnit]

For those of you with a Versant (this works on all models 80/180/2100/3100 all configurations) running envelopes in North America you can get this for feeding and unloading: https://youtu.be/DqB_Q77uRkY - customers that have it love it, nice add-on if you do a lot of envelopes.

 

[msaeger]

You can print a full sheet with bleed on the Ricoh Pro C7210x? That is something I would definitely want in a printer. We can do that on our Epson 9900 and it is a huge time saver for some jobs. Had not heard of this feature being around for any digital press.

You can do three sides without a issue on the 7210. If you try and do the leading edge full bleed it will jam in the fuser. The only Ricoh machine I have had issues with the Ricoh 5100 because it doesn't have a cleaning blade on the paper transfer roller. It has a mode for trailing edge full bleed but it runs really slow.

 

[wonderings]

For those of you with a Versant (this works on all models 80/180/2100/3100 all configurations) running envelopes in North America you can get this for feeding and unloading: https://youtu.be/DqB_Q77uRkY - customers that have it love it, nice add-on if you do a lot of envelopes.

Looks interesting, I like the take up conveyer belt thing they have.

Not sure about the feeder though. Looks like it has to sit on a high cap tray and if you have those you can just load up both trays and let it run. When one is empty fill it up while it prints from the other tray. I do this on our 2100. All you would need to do is buy a second bracket for the bottom high cap tray and that must be cheaper then that feeder unit.

 

[Brian Segnit]

Looks interesting, I like the take up conveyer belt thing they have.

Not sure about the feeder though. Looks like it has to sit on a high cap tray and if you have those you can just load up both trays and let it run. When one is empty fill it up while it prints from the other tray. I do this on our 2100. All you would need to do is buy a second bracket for the bottom high cap tray and that must be cheaper then that feeder unit.

On all digital presses you get some productivity hit (slow down, IQ adjustments, internal process control stuff) when you do a tray switch or unload after a stop, anything that stops or slows a press (not just a Versant all presses, and we work in engineering to minimize - and why a Versant has the best mixed media results - despite what other say here on this site, I have test facts on competitive print speed) - so depending on the run size continuous run could be your most efficient as this feeder has a chute feeder (drop and go), so when you see it getting low you drop in another stack so the press does not stop. Now the downside when you go out of the MSI or ByPass (and why it is called a by pass, as you are by passing all of the good stuff in the standard tray - speed, blower, heater, registration, etc) it runs at a bit of a slower print speed to compensate. But, for customers that are doing thousands of envelopes - they are telling me this is more efficient and better for them. Some Versant in shopes just run envelopes all day long. The customer that tested this product did the write-up with me, here is his view https://digitalprinting.blogs.xerox.com/2018/12/13/print-short-run-four-color-envelopes/ . The cost is about $9,500 for the feeder, and about $5,500 for the conveyor. You don't need it on a Versant you can run envelopes out of the MSI/By-Pass, or any of the Oversized feeders (loading up to 4 trays - we also have this extra kit so you can stack a little higher in those trays https://youtu.be/drOZdbdoH7s - gets pile height "more level") so it is about what works best, and is most effective (time, run, and cost wise). Hope this helps. Regards, Brian