Xerox 700 vs KM6500 - Help Please

[davidewers]

Hello All,
First time forum post. After reading many of these threads I know you guys can help. Here is my situation...
London Advertising agency, as long time Xerox users we have had 3 x DC12, then upgraded to 3 x DC3535 and now have 3 x DC250. Average monthly volume is low, around 20,000 per copier. All our Xerox's are driven by external Fiery RIPs.
We are part of a global advertising group that has signed an agreement with IKON. Part of this agreement mandates IKON copier solutions for all group companies. When this deal was done I was in the process of working out a deal with Xerox to replace all our DC250's with the 700. The Xerox deal being offered is very good.
I have now been told I have to investigate the KM6500 (sold by IKON as the CPP 650) as I may be forced to dump the Xerox machines.
I'm very nervous about swapping our ultra reliable Xerox machines for a complete unknown solution from an unknown company
Your thoughts please on support /after sales service and reliability, plus of course quality too!
Thanks in advance.

 

[X33]

just one thought for now : IKON is now owned by RICOH

imagine how that can impact the service, support and sales of non-RICOH products by IKON.

 

[Craig]

Regarding IKON, look at the Ricoh C900 instead.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Konica Minolta has come right out and told us that Ikon will no longer be selling new Konica machines which they rebrand as Ikon now that they are owned by Richo. In addition to that they will not receive any software upgrades KM may come out with in the future. So in the future you options will be to get it with the Konica label or Oce.

Rumor has it that Canon is being pulled from Ikon as well because of the Richo ownership.

So based on your contract you may need to be looking at the Ricoh Pro C900.

 

[Zubaz]

Biased or unbiased?

Biased or unbiased?

I'm new to this posting thing but I'm a consultant for a local KM dealer and have a lot of respect for this marketplace and the products we compete against. The truth of the matter is that all the devices whether Xerox, Canon, or KM, have their benefits. The KM 6500/6501e is great because it offers the ability to handle up to 300 gsm and a variety of stocks with the added benefits of robust in-line finishing options, all at about half the price of its competition. Two 6501's is better than one of the big boys in my biased opinion. because while completing a PM on one device (usually 2.5 hours for every 200K) the other device can be running full throttle. Not a bad deal at all when compared to the $100,000 + you may spend for one device from other manufacturers and the 4-6 hours I've heard it takes to complete a PM.

The one thing I tell my partners, and it seems like people on here have the same understanding, is that the device (whether Xerox, Canon or KM) is only as good as the people and service organization supporting it. It really grinds my gears when I hear about issues people are having on their devices because I know in most instances it's due to poorly trained service techs or lack of training for end users. Every manufacturer has issues but printers are looking for the best value, especially in this economy when more and more companies are printing in-house, marketing/advertising via the net or not at all.

From my experience, printers are looking for products that allow their organizations to increase their offerings, maintain high quality output and increase their margins thus providing a better value to their customers.

For any future acquisitions, no matter who the manufacturer, if you can find a service organization who has private label financing with a performance guarantee in the lease agreement, who is knowledgeable about the product and software that goes along with it and who is proactive in staying on the bleeding edge of emerging trends in the industry then you will have a partnership that will allow you to grow and competitively compete with any of the big boys.

In reference to Ikon, Xerox or any national dealer for that matter, they're job is to move boxes and increase market share and typically when the clock strikes 5 they're heading home. Not to mention the amount of turnover. Local vendors go to sleep with the same worries you do because your business is their livelihood and their ability to service and support your device will have a large effect on your success.

Best of luck in whatever decision you make.

 

[postal]

canon c6000 vs. 700 vs. 6501

canon c6000 vs. 700 vs. 6501

First time poster, long time digital owner/production manager of print for pay operation.
Here's my 2 cents.
I have been in the digital business 15 years as an owner and primary production person.
I have had canon, xerox and konica color printers over the years.
I have been looking to upgrade my xerox 250's over the past couple months and have done extensive testing on the 700, c6000 and the 6500.
Here's what i have found:
xerox 700 - comfort level as it is mainly a 250 with some 5000 splashed in for good measure. Will handle heavier(256gsm) duplexing and supposedly better registration(+1mm). Image quality is good to great. Limits are on paper feeding of heavy/odd stocks due to pretty wimpy air feed system and not handling heavy stock in auto duplex mode.
If you are looking at medium volumes(30-70K monthly) and don't need auto duplexing heavy stocks, then paired with a midlevel fiery, this machine is a money maker.
Canon 6000c - same exact machine as the 7000 with the exception of a chip that makes it slow down on heavier stocks(marketing move to make it saleable against 700/6501).
Image quality is probably the best that i have seen, rivaling the big boys(igen, nexpress)
If you do alot of heavy stocks (280gsm-300)duplexed, like variable postcards, and need tight registration(.5mm) and are willing to spend a couple bucks(okay $200) a month more on a lease, then this is the machine for you(and looks probably like me!)
konica 6501 - not as much known about this one as there weren't any to test in my area, but if it's basically the 6500 with slightly better registration/delta/paper handling, then i would opt for the proven 700 technology or 6000C. If, and the if is a big one, it can handle the really heavy stocks internally, then it may be able to step over the 700 if that's important to your workflow. I haven't made up my mind completely and would welcome any imput for those of you actually running jobs in a print for pay environment.

 

[random]

First time poster, long time digital owner/production manager of print for pay operation.
Here's my 2 cents.
I have been in the digital business 15 years as an owner and primary production person.
I have had canon, xerox and konica color printers over the years.
I have been looking to upgrade my xerox 250's over the past couple months and have done extensive testing on the 700, c6000 and the 6500.
Here's what i have found:
xerox 700 - comfort level as it is mainly a 250 with some 5000 splashed in for good measure. Will handle heavier(256gsm) duplexing and supposedly better registration(+1mm). Image quality is good to great. Limits are on paper feeding of heavy/odd stocks due to pretty wimpy air feed system and not handling heavy stock in auto duplex mode.
If you are looking at medium volumes(30-70K monthly) and don't need auto duplexing heavy stocks, then paired with a midlevel fiery, this machine is a money maker.
Canon 6000c - same exact machine as the 7000 with the exception of a chip that makes it slow down on heavier stocks(marketing move to make it saleable against 700/6501).
Image quality is probably the best that i have seen, rivaling the big boys(igen, nexpress)
If you do alot of heavy stocks (280gsm-300)duplexed, like variable postcards, and need tight registration(.5mm) and are willing to spend a couple bucks(okay $200) a month more on a lease, then this is the machine for you(and looks probably like me!)
konica 6501 - not as much known about this one as there weren't any to test in my area, but if it's basically the 6500 with slightly better registration/delta/paper handling, then i would opt for the proven 700 technology or 6000C. If, and the if is a big one, it can handle the really heavy stocks internally, then it may be able to step over the 700 if that's important to your workflow. I haven't made up my mind completely and would welcome any imput for those of you actually running jobs in a print for pay environment.

Couple of questions for you. How can you say the 700 is proven when it has only been out about 3 months. How can the 6000 be the same engine as a 7000 except for a chip when the 7000 needs multiphase power and the 6000 doesn't?

 

[postal]

canon 6000c vs. xerox 700

canon 6000c vs. xerox 700

Random -
Excellent questions. Let me start with the 6000c. I spent a couple days in Rochester with the top canon people and they told me directly that the 6000 is the same machine as the 7000, save for a chip and a power supply. The reason that the 7000 needs the bigger power supply is so that the fixing unit has enough juice to heat up to keep temp on all stocks...the 6000 does not as you know. As far as the 700, I can only extrapolate from my 3 years experience running 250's with every known substrate/size/file type and how that piece performed. If the 700 is simply a slightly improved 250, it's still worth it's price, however it does not have many of the things that make the 6000c as attrative for my type of diverse work. You are completely right that the 700 might not hold up over time, however my 250's have 1.5 million on them averaging close to 50,000 per month, with spikes as high as 200,000/mo. I can also say that my xerox's have been some of the most dependable, easy to self service machines i have ever owned, and if it were not for the emerging variable data postcard work we are doing that requires 300 gsm stock, i would jump at another xerox in a heartbeat. I hope that I have answered your questions to your satisfaction... if not, i would be glad to discuss via phone in greater detail.

 

[postal]

mistyped

mistyped

sorry...previous post i got my trips confused...Canon is in Lake Success not Rocheter, NY.

 

[random]

So the 700 is the same as 250? Gotcha thanks!

 

[postal]

6500/6501 260/700

6500/6501 260/700

Craig,
Would you say it's fair to say the 6500 is to the 6501 as the 260 is to the 700?

 

[random]

No point asking Craig he hasn't seen either.

Rflores the xerox contributory to the threads said the 700 was based on the 5000 and your telling me it is the same as a 250.

The 6500 and 6501 comparison can only be likened to a 5000 and 5000AP same box some tweaks. I don't think Konica are trying to market the c6501 as a new engine. Where as Xerox seems to be pushing 700 as the greatest thing since sliced bread where as you appear to be implying it's the same bread it just toasts a bit quicker.

 

[postal]

6501 and 700

6501 and 700

Random - right on...i think the 250/60 is a great mid production model and the 700 with any enhancements based on the 5000 can only be a good thing. I only am trying to caution those that are closer to mid to high end producers from buying into the 700 as the anwser to their long term needs. If i did however have a print shop that had a myriad of job needs and a volume less than 50K, I would not hesitate to recommend the 700 or the 6501 to them. If they are in the slightly higher end production arena or have a need for heavier stock/tighter registration, then for the money, the 6000c is probably a better bet.
Great discussions...keep em coming. I will let everyone know if i get the 6000c and what it can and can't actually do.

 

[random]

I should probably stress as someone who works on the 6500, (6501 may be different) 50k would be the lower limit for a c6500 to perform flawlessly. Lower volumes are actually pretty detrimental to the reliability of this product. Your ceiling would probably be around the 100k-120k mark some users have stated they have done higher but I have not seen this myself.

konica 6501 - not as much known about this one as there weren't any to test in my area

If i did however have a print shop that had a myriad of job needs and a volume less than 50K, I would not hesitate to recommend the 700 or the 6501 to them.

How can you recommend something that you haven't been able to test?

I recommend that you recommend that people in your area do not buy a c6500 because they can't even supply a test unit for you, how on earth can they support it!!

Good to see you have found your comfort zone with the 6000c. Do come back and tell us how it's going especially around that critical 3 month mark.

 

[Craig]

Craig,
Would you say it's fair to say the 6500 is to the 6501 as the 260 is to the 700?

As Random said the 6501 is an improved 6500, just a an 8000AP is an improved 8000.