Xerox Docucolor Clicks

[easiprint]

Hi

I am looking to find the general opinion on Xerox clicks on Docucolor machines, especially from anyone that has a Xerox on an all inclusive service contract. Obviously the counters count one click per sheet, regardless of size. However, on your click contracts, do large sheets get charged at 1 click or 2 clicks - ie, does your supplier use the third meter which counts large sheets to work out how many large sheets you have printed and then charge two clicks for large sheets?

Although my question is aimed at Xerox machines, would also be interested to know how other vendors charge large sheets. Just trying to find out how the various vendors charge large sheets in terms of number of clicks.

Thanks in advance

 

[ajr]

1 side, one click irrespective of size, thats why we print as much as possible on SRA3.

A

 

[Amer]

Same here.

 

[hondarr9]

Same here.

 

[Craig]

On the new 800/1000 they have an additional click charge for over 14 inch!

 

[Joe Duffy]

Never have paid a "large sheet" charge with KM or RISO or anyone else, but believe they would put that into any agreement to see if they can get it.

 

[rcreveli]

All of our color machines are 1 price regardless of the size. We won't sign a contract unless that's specified. This is part of the reason we avoided the did not get the 800 (That and the TCO was to high).

 

[edocpublish.com]

Xerox Clicks

Xerox Clicks

Xerox has many programs for click charges.

Based on the machine that you are getting they they would offer you the rates.
i.e. iGen has small sheet and Large sheet rates
800/1,000 is the same story
700 is one click charge regardless of the size.
Obviously color charges are different from B&W.
Note: All of the rates are Negotiable. You can also ask for free clicks to be included with the base price.

Negotiate your lease rate and try to use PIA or any printing association to get a reduced rate. Look at trade in, some times an old press like a MultiLith will get you thousands of dollars discount if you give it to them. They may not even pick it up.

Don't go for the latest and greatest press, it is hard to make money with the new Models unless you have an application that is paying you good money and you already have the customers for it. This is not the field of Dreams, Build it and they will come. It is much harder than you think. The following is a list of the pros and cons of Digital Presses

Cons:

1. The presses are slow
2. Paper curls
3. Digital paper Selection is small and expensive
4. Registration Sucks and did I mention presses are slow , With time it even gets slower. All of the machines are based on 8.5 x 11 sheet. If you print 11 x 17 cut the speed in half. Some even get slower with thicker coated paper.
5. It goes down more often than a regular press
6. Colors may shift in the middle of the run depending on the press
7. Click charges are high for jobs over 3,000

Pros

1. It is simple to run
2. One Pre-Press man can run multiple machines
3. No ink and Environmental problems and chemicals
4. Great for short runs
5. Variable Data Printing, Good Money but harder to sell. You need to be good with Databases
6. small footprint
7. Few sheets are required for color adjustment and setup
8. Clean
9. parts and labor are included with the Contract (Most of the time)
10. Spare parts are free (Except with Ricoh, watch out for Fuser unit fee)
11. Xerox is much more reliable than Cannon or the other guys and they have great Print Quality on the newer machines. Xerox Response time is Excellent in most areas. Call around and check and see how do they respond to people around you. I love the Guarantee they give, If you are not happy with the machine they will replace it. I did that 3 times so far and they did replace them. Obviously there has to be some thing wrong with the press for them to replace it.
12. Very Predictable Cost of goods. You can measure your operation performance very easily. You look at the Billing screen and you will find out how many sheets you have printed for that day and you look at your daily sales plus paper . It does not need an accountant. Good to check on your Pre press guy if he is wasting paper.

P.S. the billing screen will tell you how many B&W prints, how many Large or small Color sheets
P.P.S. Get a good RIP with the machine and use Fusion Pro Software for Imposition ($795 I think)

The above list of Pros and cons is not for one machine or one manufacturer, these are typical problems for Digital presses

So how much should you pay for clicks?
I have a simple rule, Max I would pay for click is $0.049 for Color. My goal is to be at $0.03 per color click. $0.0049 for B&W Any paper size
Watch out for sales tax. Xerox will charge you sales tax on every click regardless if you resell or not. Ask to separate the maintenance from Supplies and you will save A lot of money.

Finally checkout the Ricoh 901C, I heard great things about it.

Good Luck
Nidal Kerdiya
eDocpublish.com

 

[easiprint]

Thanks

Thanks

Thanks for all your replies. I cannot go into detail on why at the moment, but your replies have been very helpful.

 

[dewaldreynecke]

Here in South Africa they are using all 3 counters. We pay the same for an A3 and A4 click in black - that is counter 1.

For A4 colour we pay one price - counter 2
For any sheet bigger than A4 in colour we pay a little more (not double) - counter 3

When you print a large sheet in colour both counters 2 and 3 will advance by one. Invoicing works like this:

Say we pay 50 cents for an A4, every click on counter 2 is invoiced as 50c. Remember, that includes clicks for every larger sheet as well. If the click charge for large sheets is 70c then counter 3 is invoiced at 20c per click - the difference between the 70c you should pay and the 50c you are being charged for that same sheet on counter 2.

Hope that makes sense. The side effect of this is naturally that we print everything imposed on A3 when possible. They also charge different click rates to different customers - maximising their profit I suppose.

 

[X33]

Cons:

1. The presses are slow
2. Paper curls
3. Digital paper Selection is small and expensive
4. Registration Sucks and did I mention presses are slow , With time it even gets slower. All of the machines are based on 8.5 x 11 sheet. If you print 11 x 17 cut the speed in half. Some even get slower with thicker coated paper.
5. It goes down more often than a regular press
6. Colors may shift in the middle of the run depending on the press
7. Click charges are high for jobs over 3,000

* Slow? the Xerox iGen 4 220 can run up to 220 impressions per minute
* Paper curls? from the smallest Xerox in the production line, the Xerox 550, the units can now have built-in decurlers that can be adjusted on the fly
* Digital paper selection. Small? Every year there are more and more vendors providing digital media; some with specialty media like magnets, window decals, synthetics, texture, etc. Expensive? compared to offset papers? yes.
* Registration? some digital presses have a registration of 0.5mm front to back
* Speed slows down? of course, if the sheet is larger the paper has to travel more. but based on paper weights, some digital presses won't slow down
* downtime? highly dependable on operator
* color shifting? every press has a deltaE spec. Some presses have built-in spectrophotometers to keep color consistent
* jobs over 3000? digital presses are for short runs; 3,000 may be the break even point to switch to offset

 

[Craig]

* Slow? the Xerox iGen 4 220 can run up to 220 impressions per minute
How many people can afford the payments on an iGen? Really!

* Paper curls? from the smallest Xerox in the production line, the Xerox 550, the units can now have built-in decurlers that can be adjusted on the fly
You still have paper curl issues when it comes to finishing!

* Digital paper selection. Small? Every year there are more and more vendors providing digital media; some with specialty media like magnets, window decals, synthetics, texture, etc. Expensive? compared to offset papers? yes.
So the poster is correct.

* Registration? some digital presses have a registration of 0.5mm front to back
Registration wonders over time and you end up chasing it around the sheet. Until tech changes the registration rollers then you get to start all over again!

* Speed slows down? of course, if the sheet is larger the paper has to travel more. but based on paper weights, some digital presses won't slow down
Again correct.

* downtime? highly dependable on operator
BS... pure BS, I would challenge ANY operator to make a toner device last more than a few hundred thousand without having to place a call or throw parts into it.

* color shifting? every press has a deltaE spec. Some presses have built-in spectrophotometers to keep color consistent
What about inboard/outboard color shifts, reprint color shifts due to climate changes?

* jobs over 3000? digital presses are for short runs; 3,000 may be the break even point to switch to offset
Wrong again unless it is N-up printed.

Not saying that digital is BAD, just trying to filter through the kool aid infused BS. There is a place for digital machines, they are NOT the end all, be all though!

 

[printer in heart]

i have 800 but i pay just one rate