Xerox Veralink C8000 vs Xante Enpress

[bpolnick]

Looking for advice on two different printers. I have taken over a small family print business, operating pretty much as a broker to this point. I've been lucky enough to get by with great trade partners who handle all of my mid/large runs at very competitive pricing.

I'm at the point where I think I need to bring in my own printer to handle some small runs as shipping costs on the small runs are too high even if I can bundle them. I currently have a small HP laser to print some really smalls runs of envelopes, NCR forms, appointment cards, etc but it's pretty Mickey Mouse and only prints up to legal. I've been able to get 270gsm paper to run through it but I know it's time to move up to a real machine. I do have a Triumph 3905 cutter and a padding press so I'm set up for some simple small runs.

So I'm ready to buy either a Xerox or Xante. (Ricoh is out because they are also a print shop and compete against me) All numbers in Canadian$:

Xerox Veralink C800: $85 month/60 month lease. .0225 mono, .1050colour, single click regardless of size. Includes all maintenance and consumables except staples. Local dealer support

• Base model
• Handles up to 300 GSM
• Up to 12.6" * 18" and 12.6"* 52" Banners (single click!)
• 1200*2400 dpi
• 60 month maintenance
• 50 envelope tray

Xante Enpress: $410 month/60 month lease. No per click option but I have calculated a per click of .069 using Xante's numbers at a 5% coverage for colour. I'm sure it's .01 for mono.

• Includes enterprise feeder, conveyor, stand.
• Handles up to 400 GSM
• Up to 13" * 49"
• 4800 dpi
• 12 month warranty, 60 month extra warranty available for $7300 or $120 a month
• 1000 envelope tray

Assumptions:

• I would run 5 to 10k of volume per month and could pick and choose which jobs I broker
• I would run jobs that required little finishing. Standard business cards, NCR forms, envelopes
• Might buy a vinyl cutter and print small run stickers
• I'm pretty handy and have 13 years experience managing a fleet of 300 Ricoh/HP printers so I'm not that scared of running a machine off maintenance. Can't image spending $7300 in parts over 48 months on top of the normal consumables (fusers, transfer belts, etc.)

Questions:

• Which printer would you suggest and what are the most compelling reasons?
• Am I crazy to have a machine that is not on an extended warranty? (Xante)
• Is the Xante and extra finishing options really worth the difference in price?
• Is 300 GSM good enough for standard business cards?
• Is there an envelop market out there that I'm missing out on.
• What else am I missing?

Any help is appreciated!

Bill

 

[gsbatch]

The Xante is a Ricoh engine. Does that help?

 

[mojoprime]

• Which printer would you suggest and what are the most compelling reasons?

I would go with the Xerox based on the maintenance and consumables alone. A fuser in the Xante might run several hundred dollars -- and you can plan on it breaking dow or being out of service at least once or twice in the middle of big run, outside of your included 1-year warranty. it's just the law of averages. Now, the

• Am I crazy to have a machine that is not on an extended warranty? (Xante)

In this day and age, yes. We have a Xerox Versant 80, and it's four years in and i just had a tech spend four hours here the other day. Can you image paying hourly for that?

• Is the Xante and extra finishing options really worth the difference in price?

Heard good things on Xante, looked at the a few years back, passed because we weren't doing that many envelopes and i needed more feeder and in-line finishing options.

• Is 300 GSM good enough for standard business cards?

yes, but heavier sometimes gives the tactile response of higher quality. like gloss vs. matte paper.

• Is there an envelop market out there that I'm missing out on.

I can't answer that but if you're buying the machine for a feature you might use if you find a market vs. buying a machine for features you're going to use immediately, then that's probably not the reason to buy it.

• What else am I missing?

We're on our third Xerox machine over 10+ years, stepping up or laterally each time. You'll get similar responses from Ricoh, Canon or KM folks. Go with your gut -- 410/mo vs. 85/mo? i dunno. if you'll use what Xante's strengths are -- heavy stock handling, envelope printing, high quality -- that's great, but i only use one of those three.

 

[bpolnick]

mojoprime,

Thanks for the details. Specifically the details on buying the features you will use immediately.

I actually changed my mind slightly and I'm looking at the Xerox Versalink C9000 which can handle 30k a month and paper up to 350 GSM for $125 a month but colour click is a bit lower at .09. That should allow me more flexibility.

Do you have an opinion on finishers? For $130 a month I can add two 520 sheets trays (doubling the base trays) and adds a booklet finisher that can booklet up to 16 sheets. Do you see value in getting a finisher or should I just buy a lower end manual perforating/scoring machine and go the manual route. I don't see me making lots of booklets but I could see making tent cards, brochures and needing to perforated which is why I'm thinking to go with a small manual unit that is more flexible.

What's your thoughts?

Bill

 

[jwheeler]

bpolnick I wouldn't go for either of those. The Xante will kill you on consumables and parts. The Xante is good as an envelope printer if you get the envelope version, but not as a production press...plus it lacks finishing. For the Xerox, please don't get the Versalink. Your sales rep is trying to sell you an office copier as a production unit (it's even listed under their office copier section of their website) ....and it will become a problem over time as you run lots of card stock. Plus, I'm trying to find more specs online, but I don't believe it can duplex the heavier weights, meaning you will have to print everything in 2 passes. Additionally, they generally charge a double click on anything over 8.5x11 for office units, while production units charge a single click for any size up to 13x19. I would recommend the "C60 Pro" if you're looking for an entry level production unit. And make sure to get a Fiery controller along with a Spectrophotometer so you can calibrate and maintain consistent color for your customers.

Since you have ruled Ricoh out, you should get competitive bids on comparable units from Konica Minolta (AccurioPress C3070 or C3070L) and Canon (ImagePress c65). Make sure to let the vendors know you're shopping them so they will get aggressive on not only the machine price, but the service click charge. I would also invest a little time by bringing some of your files and paper to their demo rooms to try out the machines. This will not only allow you to see the quality and how the machine works, but what kind of support/people you're dealing with.

As for the finisher, if you don't think you'll be doing many booklets, then don't get the booklet maker. I would still recommend the basic finisher so you get the offsetting stacker. This will be extremely valuable in longer runs as opposed to emptying out a static catch tray constantly.

 

[bpolnick]

jwheeler Thanks for the feedback. I was worried about the costs and parts of the Xante as well. Looks awesome for envelopes but it's not like I have 100k of envelopes to print in a year.

My Xerox rep did suggest the C60 with Fiery at around $750 a month and .065 per colour copy. Even if I could get that price down 25% it would still be beyond my means at this point. I'd like to build some volume with a less expensive printer and then upgrade in a few years. Based on your suggestion I just shipped off some files to the sales rep to print off next week.

Thanks for the info on the offset stacking. Never thought of that.

Bill

 

[jwheeler]

jwheeler Thanks for the feedback. I was worried about the costs and parts of the Xante as well. Looks awesome for envelopes but it's not like I have 100k of envelopes to print in a year.

My Xerox rep did suggest the C60 with Fiery at around $750 a month and .065 per colour copy. Even if I could get that price down 25% it would still be beyond my means at this point. I'd like to build some volume with a less expensive printer and then upgrade in a few years. Based on your suggestion I just shipped off some files to the sales rep to print off next week.

Thanks for the info on the offset stacking. Never thought of that.

Bill

I would not recommend sending the files in advance in the future. That gives them the chance to prep the machine, fix any issues that may arise, and dial in any PMS colors without you getting to see the process. It also allows them to fix any front to back registration in advance. It's best to show up with the files and your own paper just like it would be in the real world. That way, if there's a transparency issue or PMS mismatch, or the prints don't line up front to back the first try, you can see how to adjust it on their unit.

As for the cost per copy, remember that is (or should be) single click. So if you are doing 20,000 clicks per month of mostly 12x18, it will be $1,300 vs at least twice that if you get the Versalink (unless they will offer you single click on that machine as well). What's the CPC on that?

Lastly, you might want to ask if they have any used C60's. They have been around for a while, and if they will cover it with a reasonable service cost, the savings on the lease payment could be significant.

 

[bpolnick]

jwheeler I live in a small city and the demo C9000 is not located here. As such, I sent them 25 sheets of various paper I use today with specific files to print on each. Since they only have 1 spare sheet for each job they pretty much need to have good results from the start. I am planning on traveling to see a proper demo sometime in the future. Based on this feedback I will bring new files with me.

CPC is .09 for the Versalink C9000 and it doesn't matter what size. I asked for a different rate for envelopes but she suggested the rate is the same regardless if it is #10, letter, legal or 12*18. In fact, she suggests the rate is the same for 12*52. I guess I'm starting a banner business!

Good idea on the used C60, I'll have to ask. The rate for the C60 is .065 CPC so it's not much better however she did mention they have an envelop rate for that.

 

[dburgat]

Under no circumstances would I go with Xante.
We cant get more than a couple of envelopes to feed witout jamming.
It is not a straight paper path. Heavier card stocks curl very bad and jam often.

 

[tngcas]

mojoprime,

Thanks for the details. Specifically the details on buying the features you will use immediately.

I actually changed my mind slightly and I'm looking at the Xerox Versalink C9000 which can handle 30k a month and paper up to 350 GSM for $125 a month but colour click is a bit lower at .09. That should allow me more flexibility.

Do you have an opinion on finishers? For $130 a month I can add two 520 sheets trays (doubling the base trays) and adds a booklet finisher that can booklet up to 16 sheets. Do you see value in getting a finisher or should I just buy a lower end manual perforating/scoring machine and go the manual route. I don't see me making lots of booklets but I could see making tent cards, brochures and needing to perforated which is why I'm thinking to go with a small manual unit that is more flexible.

What's your thoughts?

Bill

I think you'd be surprised at how many jobs you can do as short run booklets (think funerals etc) so the booklet finisher is a good move and can scale up easily. Outsourcing booklets never really seems to make sense for us with the turnaround-time most folks need for funeral programs. Even just being able to half-fold single-sheet funeral programs is a nice/quick job.

 

[Windward]

In 2006, we started printing with a Xerox Phaser 7750 (ancestor of Versalink) but quickly outgrew it. The Versalink series are office machines and they are limited in paper handling. jwheeler's suggestion to look for a used Xerox C60 or similar machines from KM and Canon is a good one. These are production machines that handle up to 13x19 paper with better registration, finishing options, and color control. They may seem more expensive but keep in mind that (last time I checked) a set of Xante toners is $1,000. Check also that any vendor has local service in your area. I recommend a service contract with any of these machines even with your technical background. The contract will ensure prompt access to parts and service and your costs will be constant. A booklet finisher is also a good idea (per tngcas) as it works for lots of short-run projects. Good luck!

 

[[email protected]]

Permit me to ask you all a question. If you could obtain an on-site service agreement from a reputable printer service organization in place of Xante's 1-year warranty, renewable each year thereafter, that included parts and labor, and same or next-day response, would that make a difference in your decision to purchase an Enpress? Cost is a factor obviously but if the ROI made sense would that make the Xante a more attractive envelope printer alternative?

 

[tzurko]

Looking for advice on two different printers. I have taken over a small family print business, operating pretty much as a broker to this point. I've been lucky enough to get by with great trade partners who handle all of my mid/large runs at very competitive pricing.

I'm at the point where I think I need to bring in my own printer to handle some small runs as shipping costs on the small runs are too high even if I can bundle them. I currently have a small HP laser to print some really smalls runs of envelopes, NCR forms, appointment cards, etc but it's pretty Mickey Mouse and only prints up to legal. I've been able to get 270gsm paper to run through it but I know it's time to move up to a real machine. I do have a Triumph 3905 cutter and a padding press so I'm set up for some simple small runs.

So I'm ready to buy either a Xerox or Xante. (Ricoh is out because they are also a print shop and compete against me) All numbers in Canadian$:

Xerox Veralink C800: $85 month/60 month lease. .0225 mono, .1050colour, single click regardless of size. Includes all maintenance and consumables except staples. Local dealer support

• Base model
• Handles up to 300 GSM
• Up to 12.6" * 18" and 12.6"* 52" Banners (single click!)
• 1200*2400 dpi
• 60 month maintenance
• 50 envelope tray

Xante Enpress: $410 month/60 month lease. No per click option but I have calculated a per click of .069 using Xante's numbers at a 5% coverage for colour. I'm sure it's .01 for mono.

• Includes enterprise feeder, conveyor, stand.
• Handles up to 400 GSM
• Up to 13" * 49"
• 4800 dpi
• 12 month warranty, 60 month extra warranty available for $7300 or $120 a month
• 1000 envelope tray

Assumptions:

• I would run 5 to 10k of volume per month and could pick and choose which jobs I broker
• I would run jobs that required little finishing. Standard business cards, NCR forms, envelopes
• Might buy a vinyl cutter and print small run stickers
• I'm pretty handy and have 13 years experience managing a fleet of 300 Ricoh/HP printers so I'm not that scared of running a machine off maintenance. Can't image spending $7300 in parts over 48 months on top of the normal consumables (fusers, transfer belts, etc.)

Questions:

• Which printer would you suggest and what are the most compelling reasons?
• Am I crazy to have a machine that is not on an extended warranty? (Xante)
• Is the Xante and extra finishing options really worth the difference in price?
• Is 300 GSM good enough for standard business cards?
• Is there an envelop market out there that I'm missing out on.
• What else am I missing?

Any help is appreciated!

Bill

've had the Xante Enpress since August 2019. If I would do it all over again - I would purchase the Intec Envelope Press. Their feeder makes sense and I've heard that another printer recently switched from the Xante Enpress to the Intec and has already run over 100k of envelopes thru it. The Enpress Enterprise feeder has been a struggle for me -you seem to have to have a perfectly flat envelope to run through it. Also the envelopes can hit the edge of the Xante metal ruler bar and cause a pile up. I've replaced many sensors, adjusted belt speeds, raised/lowered the feed wheel. Also, tried the new magnetic feed wheel attachment that came out from Xante recently. Just a few days ago, via Facebook chat message from Xante, they said it has already been discontinued (but they shipped me one anyways after giving them my credit card over the phone). I had a tech come out here last week and installed it. They shipped the magnetic wheel with two electronic boards. However, the instructions only showed one board (which stumped the tech installing it) - but you needed to install both boards. We ended up installing both boards per direction from Xante Tech Support. Turns out, the motor on the new magnetic wheel does not turn when plugged in and the belts do not advance on the feeder. So I ended up taking the exit rollers off my offset envelope exit conveyor and attached it to the Xante Enpress feeder with a large metal clip. That seems to help.