Your recommendation on Management Informaiton Systems (MIS)

[OkiTech]

Wow Court for speaking your mind! You should sue them first, based on what they promised and what you really got - it should not be a complicated case.

 

[WEB&PLATE]

yeah, that option is open to me!, IPEX is coming up so im travelling over for the week with a bunch of flyers regarding how I was promised and then treated by the company!! i've had the flyer checked out by my legal eagles so im going to enjoy IPEX and place the flyers around the place! Id much rather not to see other companies be caught with false promises!!, while the demo guy was here almost every question i asked was answered with "tharstern will charge you for that"

 

[OkiTech]

Make T-Shirt that says "Transderm are bunch of crooks" wear it, if they ask you to take it off, offer that you'd sell it to them for $10K

 

[Stephen Marsh]

PS, if anyone is looking at MIS, please feel free to contact me and i can suggest two systems that are excellent, remember if a company can't give you a 30 day demo, walk away!!!

Would a free 30/60/90 day demo be OK, provided the prospect was charged for the professional services (billable work hours) required to setup the demo system and train the staff on using the system - with the understanding that this fee would be taken off the sale price of the system if purchased (and not refunded if there was no sale)?

I believe that a 30 day demo with no training or implementation would be next to useless with many MIS systems.


Stephen Marsh

 

[OkiTech]

Stephen you make a strong point but on other side if I would be about to be sold something and offered a demo with few grand invoice attached... I'd tell them to go xxxxxxxx - lets not use foul language but that's exactly what I would do. I am thinking..... what would you say if requesting a test drive for your next car lease/finance/purchase would come few hundred charge... There are a lot of companies out there, even one of the greediest ones like Xerox, will put a demo unit on you floor, send a tech to set it up and demo it, let you use it for some time just to convince you that the product is of good quality and will suite your needs, or invite you to a demo site or to a local/semi local customer who has a similar set-up.
There are a lot of ways to do this right rather than charge a customer for a demo (something I never even heard of and we do sell equipment besides being in printing business). It starts with asking a right questions, may be visit to a installation site and then if you (seller) confident that your product is what customer needs, that you're selling a good product that actually works, you do the demo and fight for that customer and making sure that product works. Mr. WEB&PLATE was not offered any way out, just got scammed.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

UnlimitedBT, I understand that Mr. WEB&PLATE is very unhappy, however expecting a competent MIS system to be freely available as a 30 day demo is totally unrealistic. Just as unrealistic as being charged for a demo. It is not an apples to apples comparison with equipment demos vs. a MIS system.

For another analogy, I wish to buy $25,000 worth of printing from you, say 25,000 units at $1/unit - however I would like 8000 units up front as a demo, to ensure that they meet expectations and that say the lamination does not delaminate or that the staples do not fall out. Can we “do business”, I can’t guarantee that I will actually purchase $25,000 or even $0.01 from your company though… I really like your product, however despite days and hours of vendor demos/presentations and some hands on use, I just wish to be sure.

It starts with asking a right questions, may be visit to a installation site and then if you (seller) confident that your product is what customer needs, that you're selling a good product that actually works, you do the demo and fight for that customer and making sure that product works.

I agree with this 100%, which is why a competent MIS system would not be offered as a 30 day demo like an Adobe Photoshop or MS Office trial. It would be unfair to the prospect and unfair to the vendor’s product to attempt to do so.


Stephen Marsh

 

[OkiTech]

There is such thing as 8000 pcs demo, There are procedures that justified as common sense, I can show you previous orders samples so you can see the quality, Print you the proof on printer that calibrated to match the press and I will charge you 50% upfront and the rest when order is complete matches your specs and proof that you signed off on. In 8 years in business there was not a single one trade printshop we dealt with that did not reprint the job or did not made it up to me much less sent a scary letter threatening to sue if I will get a word out about poor service.
We ca go on and on about it but if sell you a product that does function #1, #2 ,#3 and #4 and function #2 not working Like happens the car has 1 wheel missing or suitecase had no handle, while the item of sale is complete overall except a little flaw mentioned above, does that entitles me to state that I sell a full solution to your needs? regardless if it is a car, MIS system or suitcase.
If company can't make it work, back out, apologize, return the money and stay friends because having someone saying that "it just not work out" or saying "I was scammed" are 2 different things.
And wait a second. what do you mean "competent MIS system would not be offered as a 30 day demo"? So something I buy to use and relay on every day for years ahead for Sh@# load of money, I should not stand a chance to even try it make sure that It does what it says it does and I and my crew is comfortable with it? I may buy a cone of ice cream that I never tried before but a $10-20K solution, I'd out that.
As far as print job example - anything printed is pretty much collateral, a booklet, flyers, etc. It will last you an X amount of time, I'd out that that anyone prints 5-10 years ahead of anything which is the case with MIS system, last thing you want to do is change it, ever (if it does what it should that it)
When we sell equipment, as better example as it is being more "permanent" install, we actually do a non commitment demos including delivery install, tech on site, we went as far as delivering two different units and let a customer pick one... Because we want their business what we want more than that - their recommendations / referrals. It all makes sense at certain level, surely with $100 products nobody does it but $10K-20K Copier or MIS system a demo should be normal plus seller must not give to the customer, may be invite someone to a demo location will do the trick, I bet Mr. WEB&PLATE would dedicate a day or two and some travel (or send someone) to make sure that his $10K purchase works and actually is what he needs.....

 

[Stephen Marsh]

There is such thing as 8000 pcs demo, There are procedures that justified as common sense...

Neither is there such a thing as a 30 day demo on a full MIS system, when there is no implementation, setup or training provided (or if there was, I would not have any confidence in the vendor or product). It is pointless and defies common sense. The prospect will not know how to set things up, or set them up incorrectly and not know how to use the system and will walk away saying that the product is crap - when the product is fine and it is just that the customer did not have the correct implementation, setup and training to make the product work.

And wait a second. what do you mean "competent MIS system would not be offered as a 30 day demo"? So something I buy to use and relay on every day for years ahead for Sh@# load of money, I should not stand a chance to even try it make sure that It does what it says it does and I and my crew is comfortable with it?

What are we discussing here, option (1) or (2) below?

(1) There will be ample time to have demos and live hands on use for all staff as part of the pre-sales process. The vendor will also ask what the customer's pain points are, what their common work is and what do they really wish to see the system do that is specific to their business. As part of the pre-sales process, the vendor will setup their demo system to reflect these requirements in order to satisfy the prospect that the system can indeed handle these points that are critical to the prospect. The prospect will have this demonstrated to them and they can also have hands on experience with all and any staff required. This is all on a demo system that does not have client specific setup, perhaps apart from where necessary to provide an accurate demo of a process. All of this has an acceptable cost to the vendor, which is a natural part of trying to win new business.

(2) This is not the same thing as putting in a live system tailored to a specific customer into a site for only 30 days when there is no implementation, setup or training provided. They will be managing their entire print business with this software, from taking a quote to exporting out sales and or purchase invoices to their accounts package. You are talking about an entire custom system setup, where the customer has to spend the time capturing and providing financial, client, supplier, raw material and other data, where the data has to be imported and or input and verified, where machines and other processes need to be setup and tested, where staff need full training on base and or optional modules, where this training could take anywhere from 3 to 10 full working days depending on options etc.

This is not MS Word.


Stephen Marsh

 

[cosmo]

does anyone have any pricing info on avanti? just ball park stuff.

 

[WEB&PLATE]

looks to be a good system, you have to look at the end use, i mean if you employ someone with limited experience that they will be able operate a system !!! we dont want to be looking for specialist MIS operators!! I looked at avanti, it has its own B2B, which is good, a strong MIS, and will link with agfa with out having to bring in agfa

 

[cosmo]

If you want to consider taking your estimating online then you might want to have a demo of our upcoming release of TribalSketch. The new version includes a new customer oriented project management approach where the online estimate and project steps are all held in easy to work with containers through a very professional looking web interface.

It is a very inexpensive solution and I would be glad to arrange a demo.

David Lewis
david at luciddream.com

Hi David, i dont mean to be rude, but your website really doesnt help sell your product, the page link for tribal sketch is Software Solutions by Lucid Dream Software, Inc and its just a blank page with a few links on the side, ive always found your website to be shit and uniformative to be honest, also, the getting started link takes me to a page that hackers would love.

 

[Morning Flight]

Neither is there such a thing as a 30 day demo on a full MIS system, when there is no implementation, setup or training provided (or if there was, I would not have any confidence in the vendor or product). It is pointless and defies common sense.

It might be helpful to anyone reading this if you could define "full MIS," Stephen. If by full you mean "costing $10,000 and up," yes, 30 days would be pointless. Even if the MIS were to cost less than five hundred dollars, thirty days wouldn't be enough. Prospective MIS buyers rarely have the luxury of spending even a full three days in one sitting. But there is a simple way around it: Don't limit the time, limit something else instead. In the case of Morning Flight, we restrict our demos to the number of customers that can be entered (Free Demos and Downloads | Morning Flight).

Granted, that's not an ideal solution. As often as not, prospects get interrupted or run into a brick wall or just lose interest and put the demo aside, with the best intentions of finishing up when they get around to it. But UnlimitedBT is right: Demos shouldn't come with a price tag. Even ambulance chasers don't charge a fee if they don't win the case.

 

[OkiTech]

On top everything there are escrow account where money can be deposited, by doing so, customer shows a commitment and if provider delivers a working product - money should be forwarded to him, if not, which is exactly the case with original poster, he does not deserve a freaken penny.
This discussion can go on and on but once again, there are plenty of ways to do things right, fare to both sides.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

It might be helpful to anyone reading this if you could define "full MIS," Stephen. If by full you mean "costing $10,000 and up," yes, 30 days would be pointless. Even if the MIS were to cost less than five hundred dollars, thirty days wouldn't be enough. Prospective MIS buyers rarely have the luxury of spending even a full three days in one sitting. But there is a simple way around it: Don't limit the time, limit something else instead. In the case of Morning Flight, we restrict our demos to the number of customers that can be entered (Free Demos and Downloads | Morning Flight).

Granted, that's not an ideal solution. As often as not, prospects get interrupted or run into a brick wall or just lose interest and put the demo aside, with the best intentions of finishing up when they get around to it. But UnlimitedBT is right: Demos shouldn't come with a price tag. Even ambulance chasers don't charge a fee if they don't win the case.

MorningFlight, yes, I am talking of a system costing around 10K at a starting point and by full MIS I should have been more clear. Not just a simple estimating package that many people are looking to move away from, they are after a full print management system, cost plus in nature with hourly rates that are costed to cover running the business. In addition to estimating, there would be orders/job bags, proofing, delivery and invoicing at a minimum in the base core module. Additionally there would be further module options such as stock/inventory control, purchase ordering, job costing to compare actual costs vs. estimated, CRM and perhaps a fully integrated bi-directional web portal module with optional artwork generation.

Before Adobe started offering 30 day limited fully functional demos, they used to offer unlimited time demos that did not have any save or export capabilities (I think even the clipboard was disabled for external apps). However, a cost plus based print MIS system is not a piece of software that exists in isolation - it requires data, planning, training - implementation. It also requires commitment, which many prospects do not have until they have a financial investment in their business investment. A correctly implemented MIS system will save the business money and will virtually “pay for itself” in a short period of time when compared to manual systems or Excel or Filemaker workflows.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

On top everything there are escrow account where money can be deposited, by doing so, customer shows a commitment and if provider delivers a working product - money should be forwarded to him, if not, which is exactly the case with original poster, he does not deserve a freaken penny.
This discussion can go on and on but once again, there are plenty of ways to do things right, fare to both sides.

I agree 100%, there are right ways to do this and it should be fair on both sides and treating a print management system and it’s implementation like an office download is not fair to the prospective customer or the vendor.


Stephen Marsh

 

[PrintMaster]

Take a look at Avanti MIS - price is reasonable and pretty powerful. You can buy modules instead of a full package alone but good starting price which includes fundamental program to get you started.

 

[pcmodem]

For expensive systems. Whether they are MIS, RIP, etc. There should be a demo system already setup and online. Then if I were a potential customer, I could watch a video (Quick training video 10 to 20 minutes) and get a feel for how the system works. Then with a client I could drive the system myself to get a feel. The demo system would be backed up and restored to previous configurations everyday or after logging off as to avoid someone from changing the demo system so every user has the same experience.

Granted this only gives you limited exposure to the system. But if setup correctly, the user would find out if the system could be a good fit for their company. It would also show how easy to use the client/web portal is to use or install.

 

[Morning Flight]

. . . yes, I am talking of a system costing around 10K at a starting point and by full MIS I should have been more clear. Not just a simple estimating package that many people are looking to move away from, they are after a full print management system, cost plus in nature with hourly rates that are costed to cover running the business. In addition to estimating, there would be orders/job bags, proofing, delivery and invoicing at a minimum in the base core module.

That's as good a definition of a Print MIS as can be found, Stephen, with one exception: the inclusion of price as a deciding factor. And an outlandish price at that.

In recent years, software has taken a turn away from "you get what you pay for," from judging the value of an application by what it costs rather than by what it can do for you. Take MySQL or WordPress. Acknowledged rulers of their respective market segments, yet totally and unapologetically free. WordPress is ranked as the number one CMS and powers more than 60 million websites, yet a WordPress site requires as much learning to fully implement as does a basic MIS. And people manage to do it every day without an on-site trainer looking over their shoulder with the meter running.

I'm a firm believer that even the smallest printer can implement, learn to use, and benefit immensely from having an MIS. I also think we're doing those small printers a huge disservice if we keep telling them that Mom and Pop shops need not apply. That for them, the barriers are just too high. Those of us in the industry know better. And the thousands of Morning Flight users, some of them senior members of this forum, know better too.

Why even the smallest Printshop needs an MIS | Morning Flight

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I agree morningflight, our MIS customers love all of the great features and benefits that our MIS brings to their business, they are very happy with the price, even more so when they look at other similar systems, not even taking into account implementation/setup, support etc. These customers are savvy enough to know that it is not just the initial buy in price, it is what the system will do for them. The features and workflow they are looking for help decide on the product that suits them. If all they need is a calculator tool, they will continue to use Excel or perhaps a dedicated print estimating application. If they are looking for a tool to run their entire print business, then they will be looking for a full MIS/ERP system. They know that an estimating tool is not enough, they need more. When they start comparing features, benefits and costs, they will see that not all systems are equally priced for the similar feature set, some systems can be ½ to ⅓ of the cost of other systems with similar feature sets. There are other factors, such as upgrades - while in maintenance contract, do they only only get .dot release maintenance versions, or do they also get full versions with all new features or do they have to pay extra for these. Is the software perpetually licensed or is it a rental only SaaS or PaaS model.

I would recommend the following Print MIS Buyers Guide for those looking for a print management system:

accuramis.com/pages/sales/buyers_guide.htm


Stephen Marsh

 

[Morning Flight]

. . . our MIS customers love all of the great features and benefits that our MIS brings to their business, they are very happy with the price, even more so when they look at other similar systems, not even taking into account implementation/setup, support etc.

I'm sure they are, Stephen, though you'd probably agree that few Accura users show sales of more than half a million or are running their shop with more than one or two employees. That's the market segment I feel is being neglected.

. . . If all they need is a calculator tool, they will continue to use Excel or perhaps a dedicated print estimating application. If they are looking for a tool to run their entire print business, then they will be looking for a full MIS/ERP system.

Not necessarily. This is hardly a situation where two sizes fit all. Jumping from an Excel spreadsheet or even a dedicated print estimating program like the Morning Flight Free Edition to an MIS/ERP system is akin to jumping from a Piper Cub to a Boeing 747. Where do the light twin or the corporate jet come in? There's a void there the size of the Grand Canyon.

I'm having to take a stab at this because vendors of high-end software (not just in our industry) are reluctant to publish prices: Would you allow that the aggregate cost of a typical MIS/ERP system, including installation, implementation, and training runs upwards of 50K? I really don't have a clue and besides, with the Morning Flight MIS selling for 1/100th of that, have only a cursory interest.

Even if we do leave out ERP, we're probably talking at least 20K, and what small printer can afford that? For the little guys, ERP is now and will forever be dead reckoning, estimating the value of a variable quantity by using an earlier value and adding whatever changes have occurred in the meantime.

As it happens, I've owned and managed a print shop for 30+ years. With never more than seven employees at a time, I was one of those little guys. Even if I could have afforded to hire an Enterprise Resource Planner, I wouldn't have. A more likely choice would have been to put the savings in the bank for early retirement. Or maybe buy an airplane.

On the whole, Stephen, I think we're on the same page. Just playing in vastly different ballparks.