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  • Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

    We are a printshop that gangs up jobs on Indesign templates. We recently upgraded to CS3 and have noticed a problem with Indesign pdf files have been having more and more tranparency issues when sending to our rip system (printergy 3.0). Has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone have a solution on how to fix this? Are there any plugins or updates we should make that relate to this problem? Please HELP!

  • #2
    Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

    You could try Exporting the PDF's from InDesign using Acrobat 4 compatibility.
    That will force InDesign to flatten the file, which might help with the transparency
    issue. I'm not sure if that'll work for everything else you do though.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

      the issue is that your iteration of Prinergy is not transparency -friendly? (I'm not at all familiar with the thing except as a name)

      So I think that if the PDF you bring in have transparency in them and you must deal with indesign (instead of using a PDF imposition application) then your real choice, I think, is to print to postscript file--thus flattening per the ID dialogs, and sending this PS file to the rip.

      Sometimes I see problems with this (using Harelquin 7) where each sep is seen as a Cyan plate and mostly blank. So I distill this PS on the rip computer usning distiller 5 and that makes a file Harlequin is happy to process correctly.

      My only thought is that ID's separation PS is flawed and needs to be "regularized" by distiling the seperated PS.

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      • #4
        Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

        Prinergy v 4.X has both the Adobe CPSI (the PostScript interpreter which flattens on refine) as well as the Adobe PDF Engine. This allows you on a Job by Job basis to choose which way the file gets interpreted. These are two different libraries that are referenced in building the page. Prinergy 3, Brisque all used the CPSI. The Brisque (and some others) complicates things more on the way as it separates the sheep from the goats in CT/LW. Not too friendly when there's some poor goat like some text half on a CT and half on a tint. Youwchy!

        If it is PS, EPS, DCS then the Adobe PDF Engine doesn't offer any advantages. However, if you export a 1.4 or newer PDF out of InDesign, Prinergy can preserve the transparency and layers and perform about 30% faster on Refine (depending on the art). It also allows color management and trapping to occur with all the artwork non-flattened. Upon choosing an output device, it flattens at the last minute but your digital master PDF stays non-flattened.

        Line 12, Hello Rampage caller hi.... can you hold please.

        If I had a dime for every frustrated prepress guy who tried to shove files through the CPSI smoothly and finding white lines, knockouts, blah blah blah, I'd be rich.

        The bottom line is: Export 1.4 PDF out of application. Refine with Adobe PDF Engine and look back at the old days with a glint in your eye.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

          Allan,

          How is trapping in Prinergy 4.x with the Adobe PDF Print Engine on a PDF 1.4? Good? Predictable?

          Also, it doesn't sound like that Adobe PDF Print Engine workflow is ROOM (since it's rendered at time of output to each device, so rendered for one device and sent, and then rendered for another device and sent). Have there been any problems with proofs and plates looking different (different rendering)?

          Since I have Nexus Raster and Imposition workflows right now, I am used to dealing with trapping problems lately on very complex artwork and would like to be able to get past it by upgrading to an Adobe PDF Print Engine rip. Right now, I rip each page and hires Pages and lores Links are made. Then I use the Links in Preps and send imposition through Impo workflow, which replaces lores Links for hires Pages, screens, and sends to plate. Since the pages are already rastered, I don't have to worry about something changing from proof to plate. If one page changes, I re-rip that one page and resend imposition through Impo workflow. Pages that shouldn't have changed don't change. And since I use this workflow, I don't have to rip or send all hires data all the time.

          Question: How does Prinergy Adobe PDF Print Engine workflow work compared to my current workflow? Where/what are the problems found in using this Adobe PDF Print Engine workflow? Wouldn't I be re-sending/re-rendering each page every time even if only one page changed? Doesn't that introduce the possibility of something changing on a page that shouldn't (rendering differently this time than the last time)?

          Thank you for your responses to these questions.

          Don

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

            Prinergy uses Normalized PDF workflow, there are no raster files until it sends to the output device. I have seen Prinergy and it is a nice system, you do not have to rerip anything as it all comes from the same PDF. The one thing that I have seen (and this was years ago, maybe they have changed since) was that previewing the "plates" before plate only gave a representation of dot placement, whereas Dotspy opens the 1bit tiffs and you can zoom in on the actual dots. I have used trapping on both systems though and Creo is far superior IMO. Heck we still have a PSM and Presstouch (using The FAF engine) does a better job trapping than Nexus in most cases-too bad we can't transfer one file to the other (we have tried, closest thing was tiff-it, but have yet to get it to work).

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

              Dan,

              Thank you for your answer. Now I just need to decide whether to stay with EskoArtwork and upgrade to Odystar/Neo, or go with Kodak's Prinergy.
              Both are all-PDF workflows. Has anyone used both, dealt with support for both, etc. and can give recommendations or stuff to watch out for? Which has better trapping? Does Prinergy also have a PDF editor? Any recommendations are welcome. Thanks in advance.

              Don

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

                Dan, I haven't used both but I've seen demos of both and others too.
                My advice would be to spend some time on your files and dig up the most problematic ones with transparencies and all kind of problems and to test them live on both systems.

                Don't go by what they tell you or show you, get them to test your files.
                You might see some unpleasant surprises, at the same time you might be pleasantly surprised with result.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

                  Don,
                  The real decision points you should look at are going to be much bigger picture questions. i.e. Does this workflow serve BOTH short run digital as well as conventional offset for instance at the same time? Does your company still consider print the only service, or are you moving into asset management, web to print, MIS driven job management, intelligent campaign management with variable data etc.. ? Where do you see yourself in 5 years.

                  When I talk to prepress people who still do workarounds that I did over 10 years ago, it makes me sad inside.

                  I wouldn't say we have lights out prepress, but it's not as bright a room as it used to be.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

                    Allan,

                    We don't do digital, only conventional offset.
                    We still do print, not any of the other.
                    I see myself out of the printing industry in 5 years (hopefully much sooner). Either being a Stock Invester (1st priority), working in real estate (2nd priority), or working as an Apple Certified Technician (3rd priority). Priorities are chosen based on possible income. My current career is disappearing, and frankly I don't want to become IT (which is where this industry is headed IMO, because that's what it will take to get the whole company tied together, and much money to update equipment and software that I don't really think is there or is going to be there).
                    I don't have to do near as many workarounds as I used to, that's for sure. But I'm really tired of this industry. Maybe it wasn't for me in the first place. I just hate that it's taken me 14 years to get this sick and tired of it that I almost can't stand it any longer. That's why I've started to look at the alternatives for myself. It boils down to paying bills (or not being able to fully) and how long it takes for anything to change in this industry. As our estimator here said (who is also the customer service, and a freelance artist) when we talked about color management: "It's not going to work until it's all automated". I agree. Until it works behind the scenes, most people will not get truly accurate color. Maybe pleasing color, but not as accurate as what it could/should be. And thinking of all I have done to try and help, by beta-testing Quark 7, and still all these problems after how many updates(?), makes me sad. Even talking about Quark 7 gets me depressed. I care too much and it takes its toll when things don't change for years on end. Would I get education? Yes, if there were money for it. I can't even get what I've asked for and have needed (although I still get jobs out with what I have), let alone education/training. I'm ready to turn the lights out and do something else and not have to think about color or Quark.

                    Don

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

                      Hey Don,

                      I feel your heavy heart and it makes me so sad. I used to feel that way until I went back to school six weeks ago on weekends to get myself updated. It has blown me completely away and excited me to redevelop new skills to augment my old ones.

                      Too bad you couldn't hold out for a year or two because what I am learning is that skilled prepress (I'm talking a dozen and a half apps open all at once, any type of delivery or task) will by then be able to write its own ticket. The knowledge you have inside you cannot be gleaned from any book and will not be available from the iPod generation, at least not for years.

                      The biggest change for print prepress has been transparency IMHO. But there are so many other dynamics that we are truely turned upside down over and over. We are now the problem and we are the ones who must change and adapt. Unfortunately, many owners do not accept this and once they are shown, they continue, perhaps out of fear, to stick to the old and they will wither away. It's only a matter of time.

                      Print is/will become just a (near the bottom of the priority) commodity and any prepress that does not expand their capabilities and their people's skills will be close to toast. I am not a doom and gloomer; I am seing it first hand in the above mentioned training.

                      I'd hate to lose you from our business. Please contact me offline.

                      Cheers,
                      John

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Indesign PDF tranparency problems...

                        Hi Don,

                        I know you're mainly looking at Prinergy, just wanted to say that I have been running ApogeeX 4.0 from AGFA for the past two months and it also uses the Adobe PDF Print Engine. So far so good, no trouble at all with transparencies, and it renders very fast as well. If you have any specific questions just let me know.

                        Cheers, Tony

                        Comment

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