N-propyl alcohol versus Isopropanol alcohol

[Lukew]

Ok the
Evaporation Rate (BuAc=1): = 1.3 for n-propyl
Evaporation Rate (BuAc=1): = 2.83 for 2-propanol (isopropanol)

also the vapor pressure of 2in1 as is = 10 mm of Hg (@ 20•C)

I wonder how one could find out the vapor pressure of say a 20L drum made up of 80% IPA 20% fount ?

So this tells us that neat NPA evaporates at half the rate of neat IPA. so in theory even though both are 100% VOC there should be less NPA in the pressroom,, but in practice who knows?

Zoros, not sure if you have read all my posts in this thread, but we have trialed low IPA printing, maybee we would have had greater sucess if the boss had allowed us to change the metering rollers to the low shore hardness type,, but with the standard 32 shore hardness possibly even more by now, and running polyester plates, we may as well of been pushing shit up a hill.. Try telling your boss that his 6 month old press needs new low shore hardness metering rollers so we can run low IPA,,

Anyway for now we will continue running 2in1 fount and enjoy its ease of use,,

 

[zoros jensen]

Npa/ipa

Npa/ipa

I think for sure exposure time is a critical factor. In a given space, release of a quantity of IPA will fill that space in specific time scale. NPA will still fill that space with 100% VOC but in a different time scale. It does not seem wise to buy a new press and not equipe it with the latest technologies to reduce harm to the enviroment but I understand your problem.

 

[qaos]

I’m sorry Alois, my language is Spanish and my English is no good, I tried to make me understand, thanks for your tolerance.
I am using N-Propyl for the reason that in my country is regulated by hard government laws, it convert IPA so expensive to us and many federal permission.
Right now we used AGFA Fount solution (no 2in1 solution) in the pressroom and 8-10% Vol. Propyl. Results are good, but we want to protect our environmental and our operator’s health.
We want to change our Alcohol solution to free-alcohol without impact our quality or printing process. I would appreciate your suggestions about or recommendations.

 

[alan westwood]

not the holy grail

not the holy grail

I struggled with 2in1 for around 4 months a while ago, it is alcohol based, although not IPA but 80% NPA. Worked ok on the Octoman web but hey, if you can’t get a fount to work on a web, you are in the wrong job! We had a Speedmaster 102 6colour, we used a fount dosed at 2.5% and IPA dosed at 4%-6%, water levels were quite low at between 15%-18% throughout the day. 2in1 was supposed to reduce our water levels but to be honest, at the levels we ran at, they were never going to be much less than we already ran at. Principle of lithography does require SOME water! We had a problem getting consistent dosage of 2in1 through the Technotrans Alcosmart unit to begin with, the rep from Algraphic supplied a conversion chart that should have fixed the problem but dosage was still erratic and not that accurate. I looked at the website as you suggested for bmmprint (who they?) and I would say that if the recalibration instructions are correct, there would be no need for a correction chart! Any case, with today’s modern presses and the accuracy of IPA/Fount doser systems, the attraction of a one pack fount/alcohol product loses its novelty and if you can’t mix a crude solution by hand to run a press, why are you in this job? Incidentally, see they claim to help clients to go continuously greener, importing by the container load from South Africa gives it a HUGE carbon footprint!!! Other problems encountered were steels inking up constantly, needing to be cleaned several times per shift, we also used to get a crystallisation around the pipe joints on the main tank. Did have some excessive plate wear, probably a third down on normal run lengths but you may not notice if you have run lengths of less than 10,000. Don’t know if this was due to the crystallisation. Biggest complaint from the minders was the smell, god-awful! We had a problem running a job with a 300 screen, just kept losing the dot. Cleaned the tanks and went back to fount and IPA and although not perfect, gave a better result. Never went back to 2in1 after that. Nail in its coffin was the price, far more expensive than fount/IPA for the possible benefits so the M.D. decided to knock it on the head. Sad to say, the company closed shortly after. In today’s recessionary climate, even more essential to watch the cost of consumables. Not sure about the FOGRA certificate, looks a bit suspect with the high Nitrate content? The MSDS looks a bit evil, probably no more than IPA though. As a now redundant lithographer, anyone interested in a decent hands on machine room manager, please get in touch! Good luck in any case. Don't know if this helps with 2in 1, any questions, please ask, see if I can remember anything else. Day have some good founts, particularly since the takeover of HDP, Total respect has had some good feedback.

 

[BMM Print Ltd]

Good Morning Alan,

We see you have posted some comments on your experience with our 2in1 Fountain Solution. We are sorry that Algraphic did not support you correctly therefore causing the issues you appeared to have. You are correct in saying that Algraphic Supplies are no longer trading and we have now opened our own branch in the UK called BMM Print.

In answer to your questions regarding what happened on your press we respond as follows:

"The calibrations are required because of the different Vapour pressure of NPA against IPA. Having a lower Evaporation rate, NPA is more difficult to detect as it give off less fumes (hence less VOC in the press room)

True, you import a Carbon footprint of 80% VOC against the 100% Carbon footprint of imported IPA (or even manufacturing locally on imported raw materials) whichever way it is not a carbon footprint increase.

In these recessionary days as you state it is better to watch the costs of consumables and by stocking one product instead of two you can keep the cost of stock down as have more control. The cost of 2 in 1 supplied by BMM Print is comparable to IPA + fount mix (maybe Algraphic were charging a higher price because of its benefits?)

The crystallization around the pipe joints could be a slight leak which would go undetected with IPA feed (because of the rapid evaporation) but would leave a trace of the fount with 2 in 1 fount because it contains the fount chemicals which of course IPA has not got?

As 2 in 1 fount keeps steel rollers and back cylinders clean the constant inking up could be because the fount was running erratically (as mentioned by you with the doser problems) (under-dosing when dirty rollers or overdosing causing emulsification). Emulsification would also cause higher water levels though I do agree a good minder always keeps his water feed to a minimum.

Excessive plate wear can only be caused by over dosing which would tie in with your erratic feed. We have a printer running 225 000 sheets every quarter on solid golds and they use 2 printing plates with 2in1 whereas he used 19 plates on this run before. They are on a Heidelberg 102 6 Colour the same as yours which confirms the dosing issues you were experiencing.

With regard to the smell, neat NPA is no more offensive than neat IPA. When the fountain solution is diluted 90% with water how can it smell more than neat Blanket & roller Wash
(mineral turps) or any of the stronger ink solvents in every day use in the press room.

With regard to the Fogra certificate and the nitrate comments we used nitrates extensively at Howson -Algraphy with all founts for 50 years because it is a corrosion inhibitor for Aluminium! Many presses in U.K. owe their long life through using Howson- Algraphy chemicals and 2 in 1 fount maintains the proud tradition. No presses using 2in1 throughout the world have reported any maintenance problems in the last 10 years.

With regard to the MSDS being evil although as you say “ the same as IPA” I agree all MSDS look evil because the comments are on the RMC in use, in its neat form, not when diluted and dissolved in a liquid formula.

A recent example of that was the chemical Magnesium Nitrate which has been used in Fountain solutions (USA included) for over 50 years. It is now classed as a carcinogen! Why? Because the dust of the neat powder can harm the lungs. How can that happen when it is included dissolved in a fountain solution at a mere 5% then it is diluted a further 98% with water before reaching the minder on the press? How can the dust from this nitrate reach the minders lungs?

Saying that a lot of existing fountain solutions contain carcinogens (our 2in1 does not) but the manufacturers do not disclose the MSDS sheets for this reason. Furthermore a lot of fountain solutions are not FOGRA approved.

It would appear that you were not correctly serviced by your past supplier and would hope to rectify the situation if it should arise again

All the best in your quest for a new position.

Kind Regards

Brian Moore
Carol Kirk

BM Management / BMM Print Ltd

 

[Alois Senefelder]

re - The Holy Grail - and the search for the Perfect Fountain Solution

re - The Holy Grail - and the search for the Perfect Fountain Solution

Hi Mr A.Westwood. So what is the difference between a " Fountain Solution for Web Offset" and one for "Sheet-fed Lithography" ???????????????????


Regards, Alois Senefelder

 

[Green Printer]

Keep beating a Dead horse.

There is virtually nothing green in this conversation.

There has been technology around for over 18 years where none of these things are issues and has printed billions and billions and billions of items.

There are basically only 2 kinds of fountain chemistry available. Solvent based usually going by the following names,Butyl cellosolve; Dowanol EB; Butyl oxitol; Jeffersol EB; Ektasolve EB; Ethylene glycol mono
butyl ether; Ethylene glycol n-butyl ether; n-Butyl Cellosolve; Ethylene Glycol Mono-n-butyl Ether;
butoxyethanol; Beta-butoxyethanol; Ethylene glycol butyl ether; BUCS; n-butoxyethanol; 2-butoxy-1-
ethanol; o-butyl ethylene glycol; butyl glycol; gafcol eb; glycol butyl ether; glycol ether eb; glycol ether eb
acetate; monobutyl ether of ethylene glycol; monobutyl glycol ether; 3-oxa-1-heptanol; poly-solv eb; 2-n-
Butoxyethanol; Ektasolve EB solvent; 2-n-Butoxy-1-ethanol; 2-BUTOXY ETHANOL (ETHYLENE GLYCOL
MONOBUTYL ETHER)Isopropyl alcohol; sec-propyl alcohol; isopropanol; sec-propanol; dimethylcarbinol ,1-Propanol; Ethyl Carbinol; 1-Hydroxypropane; n-Propanol

and those which are not.

I would estimate that over 95% of fountain solutions available are solvent based. This conclusion is derived from collecting and reading hundreds of MSDS and European Safety Sheets.
All of the data is available on the Internet.

 

[Green Printer]

Keep beating a Dead horse.

There is virtually nothing green in this conversation.

There has been technology around for over 18 years where none of these things are issues and has printed billions and billions and billions of items.

There are basically only 2 kinds of fountain chemistry available. Solvent based usually going by the following names,Butyl cellosolve; Dowanol EB; Butyl oxitol; Jeffersol EB; Ektasolve EB; Ethylene glycol mono
butyl ether; Ethylene glycol n-butyl ether; n-Butyl Cellosolve; Ethylene Glycol Mono-n-butyl Ether;
butoxyethanol; Beta-butoxyethanol; Ethylene glycol butyl ether; BUCS; n-butoxyethanol; 2-butoxy-1-
ethanol; o-butyl ethylene glycol; butyl glycol; gafcol eb; glycol butyl ether; glycol ether eb; glycol ether eb
acetate; monobutyl ether of ethylene glycol; monobutyl glycol ether; 3-oxa-1-heptanol; poly-solv eb; 2-n-
Butoxyethanol; Ektasolve EB solvent; 2-n-Butoxy-1-ethanol; 2-BUTOXY ETHANOL (ETHYLENE GLYCOL
MONOBUTYL ETHER)Isopropyl alcohol; sec-propyl alcohol; isopropanol; sec-propanol; dimethylcarbinol ,1-Propanol; Ethyl Carbinol; 1-Hydroxypropane; n-Propanol

and those which are not.

I would estimate that over 95% of fountain solutions available are solvent based. This conclusion is derived from collecting and reading hundreds of MSDS and European Safety Sheets.
All of the data is available on the Internet.

 

[Hannes]

I use this topic to ask my question.

Does Isopropanol (pure 100%) have acetone in it? Everyone who I have asked this question has said that this is not possible.

One of my client to who I was offering Isopropanol wanted to test it. He put 2 drops of my isopropanol on a UNBAKED thermo ctp plate, and said that this plate must resist 4 minutes with isopropanol on it. After 25 second the image on the plate started to fade away. My client said that now it is clear - our isopropanol has acetone in it, and that is the reason why the image faded away.

Now has anybody heard about that kind of test and was my client right or did he just want to ''show his knowledge''

 

[alan westwood]

Npa versus ipa

Npa versus ipa

Neat IPA or NPA will do the same thing. Nothing to do with acetone.

 

[Dan Roll]

It is not unusual for printers to be confused about alcohol and viscosity because in the printers mind viscosity is another word for thickness and it seems obvious that alcohol makes water thinner... Viscosity of liquids is essentially their resistance to flow, best measured for fountain solution purposes in an Oswalt flow vicometer. Alcohol raises the viscosity of water in a manner difficult to reproduce without using solvents just like alcohol (newtonion vs non-newtonian resistance to shear has a lot to do with it as well).
I do not think any of this is relevant to the performance of polyester plates. In my experience the difficulty with polyester plates has more to do with the fact that the image areas are not very ink receptive and if the ink is not adequately liquified by the ink system, the ink is too difficult for the plate to remove from the form rollers leading to a high ink/high water situation as the pressman has no alternative but to make more ink available. Try making the ink a little more liquid.

 

[BacoUK]

what about Fogra

what about Fogra

Low or no-alcohol printing is an excellent idea, but remember if you have a Heidelberg, KBA or manroland press then your warranty is invalidated if you do not use pressroom chemicals that have been thoroughly tested and approved by Fogra.
Komori being Japanese have not yet joined in the Fogra 'party' but their field engineers say the same thing. It is amazing to see the corrosive properties of de-mineralized / de-ionized water has on bare metal, so it is very important that the product (founts, washes etc) contain a good quality corrosition inhibitor.
My company makes these and finished products, but our target market is to find SME suppliers who have c20th products who want to catch up and in many cases overtake the 'big boys', using our formulations, surfactants and additives this becomes a 'no brainer' and short-cut to full Fogra approval.

Home

 

[CostaRicaPrinter]

I have a question regarding the possible usage of ethyl alcohol vs isopropyl. I live in Costa Rica, and isopropyl has been illegalized. !! But I can get from my local pharmacy 96 proof ethyl alcohol (made from sugar cane). Will this work in my AB Dick superaquamatic system? I've been fussing with alcohol subs for quite some time with NO success. Any help is welcome!!!

BG

 

[Lukew]

I have no idea if that would be suitable but I can suggest you get in touch with Amerikal and give their Genesis WDP a trial before you go down that road.
We battled for what seems an eternity to eradicate alcohol on poly plates and trialled so many different manufacturers founts without success dosed with tap water, RO water etc it near became a joke with each one ending up with you beating your head against the wall, and the sales tech guy standing next to you scratching their head and ultimately recommending to dose some alcohol in.

Enter Genesis WDP+HR dosed at the minimum amount, alcohol free, alcohol substitute free, HAP's free, run with our crappy tap water and no longer expensive de-ionised water and it's been smooth sailing from the get go.

 

[CostaRicaPrinter]

Thanks Luke - I'll look it up.

BG

 

[Green Printer]

Thanks Luke - I'll look it up.

BG

Here are th contacts to get the WDP+HR

Contact Amerikal

https://shop.bestchemsupply.com/contactus.sc

 

[Dan Roll]

I'm sure the Genesis boosters are sincere (or may be promoting their own product), but to answer your question; there is no reason not to use ethanol in place of isopropanol in fountain solution, just make sure you are aware of the concentration, IPA is usually sold at 99% while ethanol is often sold rather diluted.
The first printshop I worked in had just bought their first continuous dampening press and used ethanol they bought by the drum at a seventy-five percent concentration. I am pretty sure it cost two dollars a gallon back then. The pressman running that particular press ran twenty percent and the guys that worked in the bindery would add more than twenty percent to the Slurpees they would buy at lunchtime (the crushed ice beverage machine had just been introduced where I lived back then). Bindery productivity wasn't so good after lunch.
For some reason the company lost the ability to buy ethanol tax free (there is a thirteen or so dollar per proof gallon tax on ethanol in the US) so they switched to isopropanol, but the pressman didn't like it much and it took him a while to get used to it.
There are many products on the market that should run your press alcohol free with no problems at all. Could you be more specific about the troubles you have had?

 

[CostaRicaPrinter]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the response - and the new hope you have instilled in me!!!

I have an AB Dick 385 with the alcohol system, and we are running Kerley ink Formsmaster with Silvermaster plates. The ink is great - works awesome in all our other 6 presses. But the poly plates run drier. I can only get one alcohol sub here, can't remember if it is Anchor or another. We don't have a good selection of products. I have a gallon of Anchor LFR or LAR ? and that sort of works, but the plates dry up and we have a hard time getting 500 copies without inking up. We are printing very porous paper with a ton of paper lint in it, this doesn't help matters at all.

Thanks for the advice on the alcohol. I might try some (in the press, or course!)

 

[Lukew]

Dan, A little clarification, I am a press operator not a supplier. You would know this from my posts on PrintPlanet.
You would also know my struggle with achieving alcohol free printing on polyester plates, as you have given advice in some of my threads.
If I find a product that works well I'm happy to recommend it to other printers, as I've done the same with other products on this forum

CostaRicaPrinter, The issue your having is one of the many issues we were having until we ran the Genesis product.
I can't guarantee that it will solve all your issues as the condition of the press can have an effect on a products ability to perform but it would be worth a trial.

I have been through at least seven manufacturers and sometimes was given multiple founts to try from the same manufacturer all ended up with some form of issue.
Some flat out didn't work at all and others had either one or multiple of the below
Press instability
Scumming at high speed
Metering roller getting dirty
Metering roller circumferential banding showing up in the print
Emulsification
Slow drying
Poor Rub resistance
Troubles printing metallics
Plate wear
Plate sensitivity on press stops
Poor sheet release causing fit issues and paper curl
FS tank conductivity swing needing a flush within two weeks

Having used fountain solutions with 10% - 15% alcohol my whole career this is the only fount I have run where I do not miss alcohol.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Stop using Polyester Plates !!!!

Stop using Polyester Plates !!!!

Hello CostaRicaPrinter,

A little enlightenment - The Choice of Alcohol and its use in Fountain Solutions, a PDF hopefully of interest and value.



Regards, Alois