10 micron stocatto
- Thread starter REYES1377
- Start date
Not many printing plates are certified to run 10 micron screening. In addition, proper press conditons are ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL for 10 micron printing. If you currently do not control the the platemaking and printing process accurately, if will be extremely difficult to have redundancy in the printing process.
Greg Imhoff
Well-known member
Printing FM Stacatto 10um
Printing FM Stacatto 10um
Gordo is "spot on" when he responds by asking if you have FM experience or not.
There are many good reasons for this one being in RIP to Plate Calibration which is geometrically different than in AM workflows. FM Spots affect how we see the image differently than with AM Dots.
So one needs to assure that the CTP imaging is correctly calibrated and that your press is also set up to optimally reproduce FM prints. To do so is not quite just RIP "plug and play" as this is also about your process control throughout the entire reproduction process.
As seen at Graph Expo Booth: 3561
Greg Imhoff
President GRIPdigital, inc. & Director EPG Color Solutions
(800) 394 - 7130 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting - office
(708) 557 - 2021 - cell
Skype: gregimhoff
Print Properties Committee Member and GRACoL G7 Expert
Essex Products Group | Integrated Color Control Systems
Printing FM Stacatto 10um
Gordo is "spot on" when he responds by asking if you have FM experience or not.
There are many good reasons for this one being in RIP to Plate Calibration which is geometrically different than in AM workflows. FM Spots affect how we see the image differently than with AM Dots.
So one needs to assure that the CTP imaging is correctly calibrated and that your press is also set up to optimally reproduce FM prints. To do so is not quite just RIP "plug and play" as this is also about your process control throughout the entire reproduction process.
As seen at Graph Expo Booth: 3561
Greg Imhoff
President GRIPdigital, inc. & Director EPG Color Solutions
(800) 394 - 7130 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting**************(800) 394 - 7130******end_of_the_skype_highlighting - office
(708) 557 - 2021 - cell
Skype: gregimhoff
Print Properties Committee Member and GRACoL G7 Expert
Essex Products Group | Integrated Color Control Systems
rich apollo
Well-known member
I've done lots of 20, 30, and 40 micron FM screening.
Yes, FM is more stable on press, with the exception of gray balance. I've found FM gray balance to be tricky and twitchy. That being said, you have waaaaaaay less ability to move color on press - so you have to be certain 1) that you can match your proofs and 2) that the proof is truly representative of what is wanted.
FM tends to highlight ANY imperfections in your process - from plate-imaging to plate processing to plate handling to press to paper. FM screening requires more frequent changing of blankets, plate chemistry, fountain solution, et cetera. Pretty much all of your consumables will turn over more rapidly.
FM will require more rigorous attention to the optics on your plate-setter, and to your plate processing.
1st-order FM can appear grainy in large areas of flat color - say a big, blue square. 2nd-order is supposed to remedy that, but I've not had the opportunity to work with 2nd-order stochastic.
The up-side is that FM tends to be more stable, ink consumption can drop significantly, registration problems are less apparent, and the appearance can be nearly photographic.
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gordo
Well-known member
If that is indeed true, then pretty much all of the issues you cited for "FM" (e.g. grainy flat tints, twitchy grey) would be eliminated if you used a 2nd order FM screen. It's not correct to generalize the issues or experience of 1st order FM screening to all FM implementations.
First order FM screens are problematic. Primarily in prepress but also on press. They are typically only used by printers doing specialty work. Most vendors offer second order FM and the vast majority of printers use 2nd order.
For a comparison of FM screen dots go here: Quality In Print: FM Screening Dot Shapes/Patterns
best, gordon p
gordo
Well-known member
If you've tested 20 micron but did not adopt it, why are you interested in 10 micron? Also, why didn't you adopt 20 micron? Was there a technical issue, a business issue, or?
best, gordon p
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as far my experience if one can print 450 LPI's(Am) 10% dot consistently on press then and then only one can adopt 10 um dot.!!! plus other issues such as Blanket pilling and further excessive wash ups may reduce the production..!!
So to sum up press stability and consistance plays major role. b'coz its 10 um very very small dot..!!
thanks Cheeersssss..!!
Suhrud S. Ketkar
So to sum up press stability and consistance plays major role. b'coz its 10 um very very small dot..!!
thanks Cheeersssss..!!
Suhrud S. Ketkar
Hi all
Ok here is a different view....We run Staccato FM 20 (coated) / FM25 uncoated for 3 years on all jobs and have just changed to Heidelberg Hybrid 400 lpi (AM) / 175 for uncoated
Due to the current Financial climate, we made our print Manager redundant and now have Teamleader on each shift, but these guys are producing not managing, so we dont have intense process control on the print side (Prepress is managed by me). If we are not intensily managing the process on press, then FM is not stable ie Dot Gains fluctuate on press all the time, therefore giving you unexpected results (All our presses are controlled by Heidelberg Image Control).
Hybrid is very stable (AMdot) and gives a great print. Hybrid is lot more forgiving and are consistently hitting the LAB/Dot gain values targets (Even though some of our boards with never hit ISO standard for paper white)
What press are you printing FM on ? If its a 15-25 year old press, then forget it, if its a Heidelberg XL105 (we have one), then fine, this will be alot more stable.
I guess what im saying, you have to look at the bigger picture and dont let them Sales guys / MD push something they dont understand.
FM20 does look great though !!, but is it worth the hassle, you have to measure, before implementing.
We once starting selling staccato to a certain customer, and they replied, "they cant tell the difference"..again whatever fits
Hope this help
Dan
Ok here is a different view....We run Staccato FM 20 (coated) / FM25 uncoated for 3 years on all jobs and have just changed to Heidelberg Hybrid 400 lpi (AM) / 175 for uncoated
Due to the current Financial climate, we made our print Manager redundant and now have Teamleader on each shift, but these guys are producing not managing, so we dont have intense process control on the print side (Prepress is managed by me). If we are not intensily managing the process on press, then FM is not stable ie Dot Gains fluctuate on press all the time, therefore giving you unexpected results (All our presses are controlled by Heidelberg Image Control).
Hybrid is very stable (AMdot) and gives a great print. Hybrid is lot more forgiving and are consistently hitting the LAB/Dot gain values targets (Even though some of our boards with never hit ISO standard for paper white)
What press are you printing FM on ? If its a 15-25 year old press, then forget it, if its a Heidelberg XL105 (we have one), then fine, this will be alot more stable.
I guess what im saying, you have to look at the bigger picture and dont let them Sales guys / MD push something they dont understand.
FM20 does look great though !!, but is it worth the hassle, you have to measure, before implementing.
We once starting selling staccato to a certain customer, and they replied, "they cant tell the difference"..again whatever fits
Hope this help
Dan
gordo
Well-known member
@Dan
It's hard to dispute personal testimony, however, I'll wager that more things have changed at your shop than the loss of your print manager.
Rather than being less stable on press, FM has been proven in independent testing and in real production to be more stable than AM screening. If your dot gains fluctuate on press all the time you may have experienced a symptom of a problem rather than its cause.
I have known several printshops that were faced with having to replace older presses that have seen FM screening enable their old presses continue production - like this virtually antique, manuallly operated Planeta:
that pumps out hundreds of thousands of breakfast cereal boxes every day.
And the old saw regarding FM "they cant tell the difference" well, most people don't care about how their Yellow Pages directories or how their newspaper color advertising inserts are printed - yet, in N America, at least, the vast majority of this type or work is printed using FM screening - and very often on older presses.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, you have to look at the bigger picture and, like any other change that you consider making in your production process, base your decision to implement based on sound economic and business thinking. The technical aspect is seldom the barrier to success.
best, gordon p
It's hard to dispute personal testimony, however, I'll wager that more things have changed at your shop than the loss of your print manager.
Rather than being less stable on press, FM has been proven in independent testing and in real production to be more stable than AM screening. If your dot gains fluctuate on press all the time you may have experienced a symptom of a problem rather than its cause.
I have known several printshops that were faced with having to replace older presses that have seen FM screening enable their old presses continue production - like this virtually antique, manuallly operated Planeta:
that pumps out hundreds of thousands of breakfast cereal boxes every day.
And the old saw regarding FM "they cant tell the difference" well, most people don't care about how their Yellow Pages directories or how their newspaper color advertising inserts are printed - yet, in N America, at least, the vast majority of this type or work is printed using FM screening - and very often on older presses.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, you have to look at the bigger picture and, like any other change that you consider making in your production process, base your decision to implement based on sound economic and business thinking. The technical aspect is seldom the barrier to success.
best, gordon p
Gordo
I can only express a opinion of what I have experienced in a real life production environment. In regards to printing cereal boxes, I imagine any colour analysis over time on those sheets (if any is done at all) would show a fluctuation from the original calibration, especially printing on Packaging board.
I guess its horses for courses, packaging is tight margin work, as long as it looks good, bright etc, then run. The work we print is high end of the market and really did see a change. Im not saying its down to FM print completely, but the current structure of our business, meant we couldn't run FM effectively (as we did before).
We are running a stable hybrid screening with a great print result, so a great business decision.
I can only express a opinion of what I have experienced in a real life production environment. In regards to printing cereal boxes, I imagine any colour analysis over time on those sheets (if any is done at all) would show a fluctuation from the original calibration, especially printing on Packaging board.
I guess its horses for courses, packaging is tight margin work, as long as it looks good, bright etc, then run. The work we print is high end of the market and really did see a change. Im not saying its down to FM print completely, but the current structure of our business, meant we couldn't run FM effectively (as we did before).
We are running a stable hybrid screening with a great print result, so a great business decision.
gordo
Well-known member
Yes, you can only express a opinion of what I have experienced in a real life production environment - that's why I said that I it's hard to dispute personal testimony. There may be many reasons why you have had the experience you've shared but that does not necessarily speak to the technology itself and does not reflect typical experience.
I also can only express a opinion of what I have experienced in a real life production environment (I was once a technical director of a "high-end" sheetfed shop), but I also have the experience of working with FM screening with several hundred shops around the globe.
I just used that press as an example that old presses can, and do, indeed print FM - in that case 25 micron. I could just as easily have listed a bunch of so called "high-end" printers and/or examples that have been running 10 micron for years - and many, many more that run 20 micron.
I'm glad you're running with great results now. My point is that yours is not the typical experience that I've seen - i.e. if a printer can print 400 lpi conventional AM (which is what your hybrid screen actually is) then there should be no issues printing FM. After all, presses do not know how dots are organized AM, FM, XM, etc. - they simply perform according to the size of dots that are on the plate. If you have dot size equivalency then you have press issue equivalency.
best, gordon p
PS, I am not advocating 10 micron FM printing nor am I suggesting that it is easy to implement. What I am advocating is that if there is an ROI greater than the cost of making a change to a print production process then the change should be made. It's a business decision. The technical issues, should they arise, around implementation are seldom difficult to resolve. The human issues (culture, attitude, technical incompetence, resources, etc.) are usually the barrier to success.
In June I went to the Heidelberg Factory in Germany, what great experience. The General attitude to FM, was the experiences I have found up to that point. Obviously they were 'Biggin up Hybrid !!!', but the results I have seen to have backed up what they said.
So who knows, thanks for the reply gordo and I respect your opinion.
So who knows, thanks for the reply gordo and I respect your opinion.
gordo
Well-known member
I am very familiar with Heidelberg's attitude towards FM, and while HD can certainly do FM, they choose not to for their own good business reasons. (BTW I once did the training of the prepress and press operators at the Heide demo centers in the US). .
Hybrid AM, which as you say they were "biggin up" - is conventional AM screening with truncated highlight and shadow dots. It's function is to recover the highlight and shadow dots that would otherwise be lost due to resolution limitations in the imaging process - typically the plate or CtP. It's very popular in flexo printing because of the poor resolution of the rubber-like plates. Interestingly, when CtP first came out in the mid 1990s one of the big selling points was that it allowed the printer to hold the 1% and 2% dots that were being lost in a film workflow. I guess it's one step forward and two steps back. ;-)
I guess I suffer from seeing technical issues as black and white issues. Once you've pulled away the veil of marketing and sales spin a great many of the problems associated with printing disappear. Too much time spent with engineers I suppose. LOL
peace, gordon p
DeltaE
Well-known member
Hello Sirs,
I am a print manager of a CD102 brandnew. And I am facing to a problem of gray tone. Could you please spend sometime to read and give me some advice?
when I print a gray tone with AM, there is color variation between sheet and sheet. There is no doubling and slurring on it. The color variation is not much, delta E is below 1 but easily recognized by eyes.
After reading your comments in this topic, I found that FM could be solution. FM is more stable than AM. Please tell me which point of FM is more stable than AM? Dot area? Gray composition?
Many thanks in advance!
Regards,
Delta E
I am a print manager of a CD102 brandnew. And I am facing to a problem of gray tone. Could you please spend sometime to read and give me some advice?
when I print a gray tone with AM, there is color variation between sheet and sheet. There is no doubling and slurring on it. The color variation is not much, delta E is below 1 but easily recognized by eyes.
After reading your comments in this topic, I found that FM could be solution. FM is more stable than AM. Please tell me which point of FM is more stable than AM? Dot area? Gray composition?
Many thanks in advance!
Regards,
Delta E
gordo
Well-known member
Assuming that there's nothing wrong with your press - if your problem is gray variation in the image area I would start by using ink optimization software to reseparate your images and apply strong GCR.
DeltaE
Well-known member
Thank you Mr. Gordo!
That's the thing I am trying to use GCR to apply on the image via Photoshop.
When I check on PDF file (the file for plate making), I can found that separation value of the gray area is changed from:
C 49%, M 35%, Y35%, K 0%
to
C 29%, M 15%, Y 12%, K 38%
I will try on press tomorrow with this new separation!
But do you think that the image looks much different with the new separation?
Thank you for you very fast and very kind reply!
Regards,
DeltaE
That's the thing I am trying to use GCR to apply on the image via Photoshop.
When I check on PDF file (the file for plate making), I can found that separation value of the gray area is changed from:
C 49%, M 35%, Y35%, K 0%
to
C 29%, M 15%, Y 12%, K 38%
I will try on press tomorrow with this new separation!
But do you think that the image looks much different with the new separation?
Thank you for you very fast and very kind reply!
Regards,
DeltaE
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gordo
Well-known member
I'm not sure about the quality of the separation you'll get if you just use that option in PShop's color separation option rather than a dedicated heavy GCR profile. It's worth a try for sure. If the separation is good then you shouldn't see any difference between the original image and the heavy GCR version except it's stability on press.
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