B/W printer recommendations plz

[Tonez]

I currently have a Konica Minolta 6120 that was bought 2 years ago and have had nothing but registration problems with front to back, my tolerance for the current job is less then 1/64 so its very tight.
it will randomly start printing almost 1/4 to 1/2 off the sheet and the company its under contract with has never been able to get it running correctly so
we have been in contact with a law firm and they have assured us with everything we have documented over the last 2 years we will be able to get our money back.

That being said we are looking for a new B/W machine and any recommendations will help.

We have a job that does around 75k 8.5 x 17 a month on 80# text
we run other things on there but this job is what the machine is primarily for.

Thank you.

 

[DJenkins]

Last B/W printer i ran was a Cannon/OCE vario print. Registration is good if you know how to adjust. The way i got registration perfect was to start running the job/paper and adjust on the fly while running to get it perfect then of course adjust my count to replace the first 100 or so sheets i used to align. I,ve actually adapted that strat to other digital presses as well. Also a humble brag on the Cannon VP is its OCE print engine (GLASS Imaging DRUM) that produces incredible Grey screening. We placed prints from Nex press, offset, HP indigo, and The cannon VP all side by side and let the customer choose what they wanted and Cannon VP won no problem. Mostly due to the quality of the greys.

 

[bill kahny]

Like any other recommendation thread on here, there are plus and minuses to every brand made. It comes down to service quality for your area.

I'm on my 3rd or 4th model (ricoh) currently and I love it. My only glitch was an Oce engine that marked easily when doing off line finishing. I was told it was the cooler type fusing plate it used. I didn't have that machine long.

 

[EdwardB]

I love our Canon VP140. Though I don't know if it can maintain a registration of 1/64th of an inch, .015625in, or .4mm? I don't personally know of a machine that says it can hold registration tighter than 1mm or .04in. Some claim that with "active" this or that they can maintain .5mm, but I believe that to be KM, and its like a $50k add-on section to the machine. Personally I never liked KM devices.

the big issue with Canon/OCE print is the ink itself. Its easily scratched into, especially during any mechanical finishing process. The smoother the sheet the easier it is to scratch/damage the print.

You might give Ricoh a look. We had one about 10 years ago, it wasn't a bad machine.

 

[jwheeler]

I currently have a Konica Minolta 6120 that was bought 2 years ago and have had nothing but registration problems with front to back, my tolerance for the current job is less then 1/64 so its very tight.
it will randomly start printing almost 1/4 to 1/2 off the sheet and the company its under contract with has never been able to get it running correctly so
we have been in contact with a law firm and they have assured us with everything we have documented over the last 2 years we will be able to get our money back.

That being said we are looking for a new B/W machine and any recommendations will help.

We have a job that does around 75k 8.5 x 17 a month on 80# text
we run other things on there but this job is what the machine is primarily for.

Thank you.

I know you're moving on from KM out of this experience, but did you happen to get the IQ-501 since registration is so critical? And if not, was it recommended by KM when you bought it? That is something your lawyer may not be aware off and might come back to bite you in a legal battle. KM may also point out that you are custom-cutting the paper since that is not a standard size and may try to blame it on your inconsistent cutting. You should also verify that the paper you're using is on their approved list of media (they call it the "Substrate Throughput Assurance Guide). Additionally, is the humidity in your environment perfectly maintained according to the spec and install guide that KM provided? (I used to work at KM and these are some of the things I'd hear service managers try to put the blame on so just making you aware).

We have the IQ-501 on our two color KM's and we have very consistent registration. Less than 1/64" (<0.4mm) tolerance is a bit ridiculous that I doubt any vendor will guarantee. Even the Xerox Nuvera boasts of only ±0.65mm claiming it is better than an offset press (see page 6 on that link). Finally, do the specifications on the 6120 claim that they can do <0.4mm front-to-back alignment? I don't have access to the specification guides anymore, but I don't think it was that low. If that was something so critical to your operation, did you extensively test that during a demo and get it in writing as part of your service agreement? If not, they are going to fall back on the posted specs. I do agree, however, that for the prints to suddenly jump 1/4" to 1/2" is way out of spec and it sounds like there is something wrong with your machine (or possibly some miss-cut paper?) We have 3 of the 6136's in my shop and we've never have this issue.

 

[Tonez]

I know you're moving on from KM out of this experience, but did you happen to get the IQ-501 since registration is so critical? And if not, was it recommended by KM when you bought it? That is something your lawyer may not be aware off and might come back to bite you in a legal battle. KM may also point out that you are custom-cutting the paper since that is not a standard size and may try to blame it on your inconsistent cutting. You should also verify that the paper you're using is on their approved list of media (they call it the "Substrate Throughput Assurance Guide). Additionally, is the humidity in your environment perfectly maintained according to the spec and install guide that KM provided? (I used to work at KM and these are some of the things I'd hear service managers try to put the blame on so just making you aware).

We have the IQ-501 on our two color KM's and we have very consistent registration. Less than 1/64" (<0.4mm) tolerance is a bit ridiculous that I doubt any vendor will guarantee. Even the Xerox Nuvera boasts of only ±0.65 claiming it is better than an offset press (see page 6 on that link). Finally, do the specifications on the 6120 claim that they can do <0.4mm front-to-back alignment? I don't have access to the specification guides anymore, but I don't think it was that low. If that was something so critical to your operation, did you extensively test that during a demo and get it in writing as part of your service agreement? If not, they are going to fall back on the posted specs. I do agree, however, that for the prints to suddenly jump 1/4" to 1/2" is way out of spec and it sounds like there is something wrong with your machine (or possibly some miss-cut paper?) We have 3 of the 6136's in my shop and we've never have this issue.

I know you're moving on from KM out of this experience, but did you happen to get the IQ-501 since registration is so critical? And if not, was it recommended by KM when you bought it? That is something your lawyer may not be aware off and might come back to bite you in a legal battle. KM may also point out that you are custom-cutting the paper since that is not a standard size and may try to blame it on your inconsistent cutting. You should also verify that the paper you're using is on their approved list of media (they call it the "Substrate Throughput Assurance Guide). Additionally, is the humidity in your environment perfectly maintained according to the spec and install guide that KM provided? (I used to work at KM and these are some of the things I'd hear service managers try to put the blame on so just making you aware).

We have the IQ-501 on our two color KM's and we have very consistent registration. Less than 1/64" (<0.4mm) tolerance is a bit ridiculous that I doubt any vendor will guarantee. Even the Xerox Nuvera boasts of only ±0.65 claiming it is better than an offset press (see page 6 on that link). Finally, do the specifications on the 6120 claim that they can do <0.4mm front-to-back alignment? I don't have access to the specification guides anymore, but I don't think it was that low. If that was something so critical to your operation, did you extensively test that during a demo and get it in writing as part of your service agreement? If not, they are going to fall back on the posted specs. I do agree, however, that for the prints to suddenly jump 1/4" to 1/2" is way out of spec and it sounds like there is something wrong with your machine (or possibly some miss-cut paper?) We have 3 of the 6136's in my shop and we've never have this issue.

We do have guarantees in writing from the company that we bought the machine from so we are good there.

We did not get the iQ-501 when we purchased the machine because they guaranteed it would register within the spec we needed but for the last couple months they have been pushing us to get it but won't guarantee it will fix the issue, we told them if they guarantee it we don't have a problem spending another 10k.

Im assuming your numbers are missing some 0's because 0.65 is extremely not ok or am i missing something? I have ran sheetfed offset for the first 10 years of my career and can guarantee registration that's -/+ 0.0010

 

[jwheeler]

Im assuming your numbers are missing some 0's because 0.65 is extremely not ok or am i missing something?

My bad...it should have been ±0.65mm which was shown at the link I provided on page 6...and Xerox claims it, not me. See screenshot below. I'm surprised they're not at least willing to let you try out the IQ-501 to see if it works so you can both avoid a legal battle.

 

[Tonez]

I know you're moving on from KM out of this experience, but did you happen to get the IQ-501 since registration is so critical? And if not, was it recommended by KM when you bought it? That is something your lawyer may not be aware off and might come back to bite you in a legal battle. KM may also point out that you are custom-cutting the paper since that is not a standard size and may try to blame it on your inconsistent cutting. You should also verify that the paper you're using is on their approved list of media (they call it the "Substrate Throughput Assurance Guide). Additionally, is the humidity in your environment perfectly maintained according to the spec and install guide that KM provided? (I used to work at KM and these are some of the things I'd hear service managers try to put the blame on so just making you aware).

We have the IQ-501 on our two color KM's and we have very consistent registration. Less than 1/64" (<0.4mm) tolerance is a bit ridiculous that I doubt any vendor will guarantee. Even the Xerox Nuvera boasts of only ±0.65 claiming it is better than an offset press (see page 6 on that link). Finally, do the specifications on the 6120 claim that they can do <0.4mm front-to-back alignment? I don't have access to the specification guides anymore, but I don't think it was that low. If that was something so critical to your operation, did you extensively test that during a demo and get it in writing as part of your service agreement? If not, they are going to fall back on the posted specs. I do agree, however, that for the prints to suddenly jump 1/4" to 1/2" is way out of spec and it sounds like there is something wrong with your machine (or possibly some miss-cut paper?) We have 3 of the 6136's in my shop and we've never have this issue.

My bad...it should have been ±0.65mm which was shown at the link I provided on page 6...and Xerox claims it, not me. See screenshot below. I'm surprised they're not at least willing to let you try out the IQ-501 to see if it works so you can both avoid a legal battle.

View attachment 293953

Ya we think they know the machine is screwed and there just trying to push us outside the 36 month window where they have to refund us the 50k for the machine.

i should mention we also have a c3070 that runs flawlessly in the same room as the 6120 the only reason we try not to use is the click fees are 3-4x that of the 6120.

 

[Tonez]

My bad...it should have been ±0.65mm which was shown at the link I provided on page 6...and Xerox claims it, not me. See screenshot below. I'm surprised they're not at least willing to let you try out the IQ-501 to see if it works so you can both avoid a legal battle.

on the IQ-501 does it require you to have print marks for it to register the sheet? googling it and im getting some conflicting info.
the job that is 8.5 x 17 i run is too the finished size and if it requires crop marks to register as its printing im not sure it would even help.

 

[jwheeler]

on the IQ-501 does it require you to have print marks for it to register the sheet? googling it and im getting some conflicting info.
the job that is 8.5 x 17 i run is too the finished size and if it requires crop marks to register as its printing im not sure it would even help.

To have it constantly monitor the alignment, yes, it needs to print marks in the corners. However, you can also set it to periodically check at any interval you choose (every 50, 100, or 500 sheets, etc). It will very quickly print only the marks on a sheet and eject it to another output tray. It will continue if it’s in spec, or it will pause for your attention if it’s out of alignment.

However, the IQ is also very helpful for getting the paper in register before you even start. I assume you’re doing it manually on the scanner now. With the IQ you just press the auto adjust button before you start and it gets the tray all lined up automatically with 1 sheet. You can program this to happen automatically every time you start a new job too.

 

[namelessentity]

The Nuvera has been discontinued by Xerox. The Oce Varioprint Titan's have a .3mm tolerance, but I don't think you have the volume to justify the purchase. We have Xerox Primelink's in our shop now and the registration seems pretty decent. I don't think 1/64" is realistic on 99% of toner boxes though.

 

[jwheeler]

Oce Varioprint Titan's have a .3mm tolerance

That is an impressive claim (listed on page 3 of this data sheet)! I wonder if users actually experience that in the real-word on a consistent basis...?

 

[namelessentity]

That is an impressive claim (listed on page 3 of this data sheet)! I wonder if users actually experience that in the real-word on a consistent basis...?

I found it to be pretty true. It's a perfecting press so you don't need to flip the sheet to duplex. We used to have one, but Canon EOL our model, and our volume is too low to justify another one. Now we have 2 small Xerox Primelink B9136 printers.