Shopping for a new Digital Press...

[jkbff]

I am not sure where to start… I'm looking for a new press...

I am absolutely over Xerox and their model… I say this is a person that used to sell Xerox machines. I know how much commission is generated. I know where the floor is on most of the machines. For what they charge their markup is absolutely not worth the service that we basically don't get.

That being said, the current fleet is a Versant 180 and a Color J75. The J 75 had stopped service on it quite a while ago, the Versant 180 is having a stop service this year. We are eight years into a three year lease… Xerox evergreened the lease, we can't get anyone to give us a buyout because the sales channel that the 180 came from has long disappeared into the massive corporate machine that is Xerox…

For some reason, I am dead set on an AccurioPress C7100e. I don't know if its because of the IQ-501 and the TU-510E, but that is what I have my eye on.

But I wanna do my due diligence…
Here is our usage as of today, 03/04/2026:

Xerox Color J75 Press
Installed: 03/2013
Color impressions: 650,060
Black impressions: 2,401,267
Total impressions: 3,051,327
Color large impressions: 497,957
Black large impressions: 1,848,540

Xerox Versant 180
Installed: 07/2018
Color impressions: 925,689
Black impressions: 1,368,018
Total impressions: 2,293,707
Color large impressions: 611,016
Extra long impressions: 8,114

There are Fiery RIPs on each unit, the j75 came with a freeflow but I pushed Xerox to give us a Fiery for the j75 when we bought the VS180 because they wouldn't come down on their price any further.

The big thing is going to be service… We run a lot of 12.5"x19", and quite a bit of 300gsm coated stocks. Also a lot of NCR. Either we need to be able to service the machine, or there needs to be someone from the vendor willing to do it regularly.

There has been an odd .. hate/love relationship with the Versant 180 which is why I'm not ... to energized to jump into a Proficio. Its just Color 252/Color 700/Color j75 all over again.

Ideally I'd like to get a digital production press from a company/vendor that isn't going to gatekeep repair info. I'm huge on right to repair.

Thats why we still have a Heidelberg MO, a two color Speedmaster 52, a 1 color Printmaster and a GTO.

I'm really over this cycle of being forced into a new digital press because of software platforms when there is still quite a bit of life left in these units.

Also, because of Fiery doing subscription models, I am not sure if I want to do a Fiery RIP anymore or just use the integrated controller. I need to do more research but this 3/5 year stuff is ridiculous, especially with what the Fiery adds to the cost of the lease.

For the most part, this post was a rant of frustrations, but I do need to find a new press and am hoping I can find some decent insight here.

If anything, thank you for reading this.

 

[SoggyWinter]

If you're in the Americas, talk to x-digital in San Diego. I got a refurb V4100 from them for under 100k with almost every accessory. They'll sell you parts too.

If you find a digital press manufacturer that makes service manuals available please let me know! I've asked around Printing United and was told "no".

 

[EdwardB]

I know of no manufacturer that will willingly give you repair information. You will pay for it one way or another, either upfront or through the means of a service contract. Canon in particular now hides their service mode behind an encrypted thumbdrive key.

 

[Robohopar]

KM 7100’s have known to be lemons. Just fyi.

The TU510 seems like a great idea until it’s not. Do yourself a favor and get yourself an offline SCC like the Duplo 618. It is efficient in MANY ways.

 

[jkbff]

KM 7100’s have known to be lemons. Just fyi.

The TU510 seems like a great idea until it’s not. Do yourself a favor and get yourself an offline SCC like the Duplo 618. It is efficient in MANY ways.

IS there a konica minolta with the IQ that would be a decent suggestion for the mid-volume we do?

I'm on the fence with the trimmer unit because of knowing what happens inline when something is down, but for weeks when there is one person around, the thought was how nice it would be to have. I do like the idea of the Duplo 618, I'm just not fond of our duplo dealer in the area.

A lot of this stems from being burned by sales people making fat commissions on these and not delivering what they've promised over the years.

 

[kslight]

I have a Ricoh 7210 that was installed March 2022, currently has about 4 million total clicks. It has been a true workhorse, rarely need to see service, and comes with a bunch of common parts that are easy to swap out when you need to. If you’re used to Xerox you won’t believe how long drums and such last on this machine, and they rarely go bad before the counter says to change. This is our only cut sheet printer, did not get any extra inline finishing on it, and got a fiery. It is a 5 year lease, and I intend to replace it with another Ricoh when it’s time. Registration is better than any other machine I’ve used (including KM with IQ), quality is consistent, doesn’t develop random show stopping faults, etc.

Prior we had a KM 6085 with the IQ501 and inline booklet maker, and the whole thing was a total nightmare from day one. I’ve gone into this in other posts if you care for more details but I would never give KM another $ as long as it’s up to me.

I’m a big fan of buying external finishing devices, and leasing printers. Buy a duplo booklet maker and a slitter cutter creaser, they’ll last 10-20 years with few issues. We have both and have never needed service after install. Printers I think are ready to be replaced at the end of a lease, and the finances to keep it going after that you know rarely make sense to keep the machine anyway, IMHO. It’s often cheaper to swap it out for a new one that isn’t worn out, and have a service contract. I don’t have time or available labor to service the whole thing myself, or care to troubleshoot, source and pay for parts on the gray market. I also don’t see a need for a “backup” machine with our current printer and volume. Service is out quick enough and the machine is reliable enough it doesn’t matter to us.


I agree that it is unlikely you’ll find a manufacturer that will hand you a service manual, etc on one of these.

 

[gazfocus]

Our last production press was a Konica C3070 and I absolutely loved that thing. I didn't go for the IQ because it would have almost doubled the price of the overall machine and I didn't honestly miss it. The only thing I wished I'd got with the Konica was the decurler module (can't remember what they call it) but doing NCR was a right pain without it.

We ended up buying a Versant 80 used as a second machine and then in typical fashion pivoted the business so we didn't need the two machines and sold the Konica as it was the one that fetched the better price, though I very much regret it to this day.

That being said, we have been running our Versant 80 without a service contract for nearly 15 months now and have saved a boat load. While I don't generally recommend not having a service contract, now I've got the hang of the Xerox, it's quite easy to spot what is causing issues and I've only replaced a handful of drums, a 2nd btr and the fuser belt module (I couldn't trust myself to change just the belt and slip sheet so bought the whole module to just drop in) so other than toner, I've done pretty well out of it.

We are looking to upgrade this year though (will do my own thread soon I expect) but I've always heard Ricoh are the bees knees so I'd definitely have a look to see what kind of service you can get for a Ricoh and see what they offer you pricewise.

 

[TJPrinter]

Also, because of Fiery doing subscription models, I am not sure if I want to do a Fiery RIP anymore or just use the integrated controller. I need to do more research but this 3/5 year stuff is ridiculous, especially with what the Fiery adds to the cost of the lease.

Do you mean the extras are subscription models or the rip is subscription now? I have never heard that before.

 

[Robohopar]

I’ve heard the 4080 is a strong machine, although I’ve never personally owned one. I did own the 7090 and, to be honest, it was pretty atrocious. They eventually swapped it out for a 12,000, and that machine has been fantastic. Like any brand it has its share of issues, but overall it’s been very solid.

We don’t run 24 hours a day. In about a year and a half I’ve only put around 2 million clicks on it. The machine is fast, the IQ-501 is fantastic, and paired with the SD-513 it really gets the job done. Although it has its times it doesn't shine...for example replacing drums and corona wires at barely 50% of its life due to copy quality issues.

Other brands are great too, but I’ve seen buddies in my area fall short on job completion because their machines were down for weeks at a time.

I agree with your comment about salespeople. Some are definitely pushier than others, but at the end of the day everyone is there to make a living. It’s unfortunate you’ve had bad reps in your area, but something like a Duplo 618 can really make life easier and more profitable. It might be worth putting bygones aside and at least inquiring.

Knowing what I know now after purchasing several machines, I personally wouldn’t buy anything below a full production press like the Konica 12,000 or something comparable from another brand. Speed and media tolerance make a huge difference.

For example, if you’re running a lot of 300–350 GSM stock, I wouldn’t want a printer that maxes out at 350 GSM. I’d always want some headroom. Speed is another big factor. I started with a Canon C710 and thought it was great at the time… until I realized how slow it actually was. Ha.

 

[gazfocus]

I’ve heard the 4080 is a strong machine, although I’ve never personally owned one. I did own the 7090 and, to be honest, it was pretty atrocious. They eventually swapped it out for a 12,000, and that machine has been fantastic. Like any brand it has its share of issues, but overall it’s been very solid.

We don’t run 24 hours a day. In about a year and a half I’ve only put around 2 million clicks on it. The machine is fast, the IQ-501 is fantastic, and paired with the SD-513 it really gets the job done. Although it has its times it doesn't shine...for example replacing drums and corona wires at barely 50% of its life due to copy quality issues.

Other brands are great too, but I’ve seen buddies in my area fall short on job completion because their machines were down for weeks at a time.

I agree with your comment about salespeople. Some are definitely pushier than others, but at the end of the day everyone is there to make a living. It’s unfortunate you’ve had bad reps in your area, but something like a Duplo 618 can really make life easier and more profitable. It might be worth putting bygones aside and at least inquiring.

Knowing what I know now after purchasing several machines, I personally wouldn’t buy anything below a full production press like the Konica 12,000 or something comparable from another brand. Speed and media tolerance make a huge difference.

For example, if you’re running a lot of 300–350 GSM stock, I wouldn’t want a printer that maxes out at 350 GSM. I’d always want some headroom. Speed is another big factor. I started with a Canon C710 and thought it was great at the time… until I realized how slow it actually was. Ha.

Just in response to your comment about wanting headroom... our Versant 80 maxes out a duplexing 300gsm but we duplex 350gsm all the time. We also have far less issues with the printer when printing 350gsm than say 170gsm so not always a factor though I do see where you're coming from.

 

[Robohopar]

Just in response to your comment about wanting headroom... our Versant 80 maxes out a duplexing 300gsm but we duplex 350gsm all the time. We also have far less issues with the printer when printing 350gsm than say 170gsm so not always a factor though I do see where you're coming from.

Oh wow. Almost never the case. Well not that I’ve heard of before at least. In any case id you had issues your service contact wouldn’t help you out so not best business practice if you’re buying a new one and wanting to run out of spec media. But glad it works so well for you. Wish I had that luck! Haha

 

[gazfocus]

Oh wow. Almost never the case. Well not that I’ve heard of before at least. In any case id you had issues your service contact wouldn’t help you out so not best business practice if you’re buying a new one and wanting to run out of spec media. But glad it works so well for you. Wish I had that luck! Haha

Yeah, we did have an issue once where 170gsm was duplexing fine but 350gsm kept jamming as it entered the duplex path. Engineer came out and asked what stock it was and as we get on, showed him the label and he did tell me if he can't fix it without parts he couldn't order parts due to it not performing out of spec. It just so happened that I managed to find some left over 250gsm stock to try while he was here and that jammed too so he had to address it at that point. It turned out to be a tiny fleck of paper at the start of the duplex path that the 170gsm could get past but thicker stocks could't.

That said, our Versant 80 is not on a contract anymore so we maintain it ourselves (saved a boat load of money in the process) but I wouldn't recommend that for most people either.

 

[jwheeler]

I used to sell KM production gear, and now work at a shop with 5 KM presses (see models in my signature). I have made several posts (or responses to other's posts) about how problematic the C7100 series has been for us. The C6085 has been a workhorse. I think the issue with the C7100 is that it is just the C4080 engine which has been sped up to 100ppm and it can't handle it (this is what the techs tell me). I have heard nothing but good things from my techs and the users on this forum about the C4080 series - and it has been a proven model dating back to the C1070, C3070, etc.

That being said, we have been assured with a pinky promise that the newer C7100e has fixed all of the issues they had on the C7100...but only time and experience will tell if that's true. We don't trust it, so we're going with the C12010/14010 series when we upgrade. In our area (Southern California) KM has a great service team, and they're local so response time/parts are fast. Plus, our volumes are increasing. We are also strongly considering the Ricoh C9500 series due to all of the positive feedback we see on this forum regarding Ricoh in general.

Now back to your scenario...thank you so much for providing your numbers! Your averages between both machines (assuming there hasn't been any major changes to your workload lately) are as follows:
Color: 14,229/mo
Black: 30,263/mo
Total: 44,492/mo

You could easily run that sort of volume on a single KM C4080 or a Ricoh C7500. Since you currently have 2 machines, and might enjoy having redundancy, I'd suggest an AccurioPrint 2100 from KM, or the Ricoh Pro 8300s. Both of these are monochrome machines and I'm suggesting them since ~70% of your work is black only. You will see a savings on clicks to help offset the lease cost a bit too. Usually a black CPC on a color machine is ~$0.01, but on a mono machine its usually ~$0.0035....about $200/mo less with your volume. Keep in mind, though, that the AP 2100 maxes at 12x18 sheets, and unless things have changed since I was at KM, it doesn't handle coated stock very well. But it's a workhorse for bond, and uncoated stocks. The Ricoh 8300s handles up to 13x19.

While the IQ from KM is great for quick setup of front-to-back alignment, I don't feel it's worth the money (~$10,000+) or the extra space. The KM's are really good at holding registration after you align it before running and it doesn't take much time at all to do it off the copier glass vs the IQ (we're talking 2-3min vs 30 seconds...and that's assuming the IQ isn't in one of it's forever warmup/adjusting operations). So if you don't get the IQ, just make sure you at least get the copier glass with the cover (you don't need to opt for the document feeder unless you do a lot of scanning/hard copies).

As for servicing it yourself, most vendors have a program where you can get trained to service about 75% of the issues yourself, and they even provide you with the parts/supplies. For KM, they call it the ORU (Operator Replaceable Unit) program. For Ricoh, they call it the TCRU (Trained Customer Replaceable Units) program. I don't know how it works with Ricoh, but for KM, there is a one-time cost which includes you getting trained on your machine (either at your site, or at their tech training facility) plus a whole bunch of parts are provided up front, and replaced as they're used.

Regarding the KM vs Fiery controller...all 5 of our machines have KM controllers and they work great. We also have AccurioFlux, which is their document prep and imposition software. It works great too. It was a bit of an adjustment for me because I had always worked with Fiery's, but I haven't found anything I can't do with the KM controllers that I could with the Fiery.

Finally, you mentioned the in-line slitter/cutter/creaser...don't do it! The more inline finishing you have, the more chances for your main money-maker to be down, and it slows down the printing. Plus, it gets tied in with the lease of the machine, and you have to buy it all over again when you replace the press. Get an offline Duplo 618 or AeroCut. They will outlast any digital press 3-4x and allows your to print at full speed, while finishing off-line.

 

[Robohopar]

I used to sell KM production gear, and now work at a shop with 5 KM presses (see models in my signature). I have made several posts (or responses to other's posts) about how problematic the C7100 series has been for us. The C6085 has been a workhorse. I think the issue with the C7100 is that it is just the C4080 engine which has been sped up to 100ppm and it can't handle it (this is what the techs tell me). I have heard nothing but good things from my techs and the users on this forum about the C4080 series - and it has been a proven model dating back to the C1070, C3070, etc.

That being said, we have been assured with a pinky promise that the newer C7100e has fixed all of the issues they had on the C7100...but only time and experience will tell if that's true. We don't trust it, so we're going with the C12010/14010 series when we upgrade. In our area (Southern California) KM has a great service team, and they're local so response time/parts are fast. Plus, our volumes are increasing. We are also strongly considering the Ricoh C9500 series due to all of the positive feedback we see on this forum regarding Ricoh in general.

Now back to your scenario...thank you so much for providing your numbers! Your averages between both machines (assuming there hasn't been any major changes to your workload lately) are as follows:
Color: 14,229/mo
Black: 30,263/mo
Total: 44,492/mo

You could easily run that sort of volume on a single KM C4080 or a Ricoh C7500. Since you currently have 2 machines, and might enjoy having redundancy, I'd suggest an AccurioPrint 2100 from KM, or the Ricoh Pro 8300s. Both of these are monochrome machines and I'm suggesting them since ~70% of your work is black only. You will see a savings on clicks to help offset the lease cost a bit too. Usually a black CPC on a color machine is ~$0.01, but on a mono machine its usually ~$0.0035....about $200/mo less with your volume. Keep in mind, though, that the AP 2100 maxes at 12x18 sheets, and unless things have changed since I was at KM, it doesn't handle coated stock very well. But it's a workhorse for bond, and uncoated stocks. The Ricoh 8300s handles up to 13x19.

While the IQ from KM is great for quick setup of front-to-back alignment, I don't feel it's worth the money (~$10,000+) or the extra space. The KM's are really good at holding registration after you align it before running and it doesn't take much time at all to do it off the copier glass vs the IQ (we're talking 2-3min vs 30 seconds...and that's assuming the IQ isn't in one of it's forever warmup/adjusting operations). So if you don't get the IQ, just make sure you at least get the copier glass with the cover (you don't need to opt for the document feeder unless you do a lot of scanning/hard copies).

As for servicing it yourself, most vendors have a program where you can get trained to service about 75% of the issues yourself, and they even provide you with the parts/supplies. For KM, they call it the ORU (Operator Replaceable Unit) program. For Ricoh, they call it the TCRU (Trained Customer Replaceable Units) program. I don't know how it works with Ricoh, but for KM, there is a one-time cost which includes you getting trained on your machine (either at your site, or at their tech training facility) plus a whole bunch of parts are provided up front, and replaced as they're used.

Regarding the KM vs Fiery controller...all 5 of our machines have KM controllers and they work great. We also have AccurioFlux, which is their document prep and imposition software. It works great too. It was a bit of an adjustment for me because I had always worked with Fiery's, but I haven't found anything I can't do with the KM controllers that I could with the Fiery.

Finally, you mentioned the in-line slitter/cutter/creaser...don't do it! The more inline finishing you have, the more chances for your main money-maker to be down, and it slows down the printing. Plus, it gets tied in with the lease of the machine, and you have to buy it all over again when you replace the press. Get an offline Duplo 618 or AeroCut. They will outlast any digital press 3-4x and allows your to print at full speed, while finishing off-line.

Yes, my next one will be a 14010 or the Ricoh 9500, it’ll be a tough decision.

Does the KM controller have a hot folder like setup like the fiery does?

I jsut heard the Duplo 618’s that used to cost $36k~ish are now almost $60k?

 

[jwheeler]

Yes, my next one will be a 14010 or the Ricoh 9500, it’ll be a tough decision.

Does the KM controller have a hot folder like setup like the fiery does?

I jsut heard the Duplo 618’s that used to cost $36k~ish are now almost $60k?

AccurioFlux has hot folders that we use every day for our business cards. Very easy to setup. I don’t think the KM controller has hot folders without Accurio Flux. Besides hot folders, it has a good imposition tool (which even allows for Dutch cuts), automatic numbering, VDP, etc. It’s similar to buying impose/compose if you have a Fiery.

That’s pretty crazy if the Duplo’s have jumped up in price that much! We have an AeroCut nano which we exclusively run business cards on all day, every day (and it’s nearly flawless). We also have an AeroCut Prime (which is now the AeroCut X) that we use for finishing all other jobs besides business cards.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

The 618s are still the mid 30k price.

 

[Robohopar]

The 618s are still the mid 30k price.

Okay. So the info I got was not accurate. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[richsweeney]

We run the v280 and the c4080 side by side. Only about a year apart in age. Think of the 80/20 rule. The v280 is the 20. And the worst part is the xerox costs are more. I treat the 280 as my back up, and I avoid coated stock except for very short runs as it kills the BTR2. I managed to get a spare btr2 hidden in case I really need it. I was so stupid to sign the xerox contract, and they keep charging me tax at the same time. Over 15 years with xerox, no more.

 

[SoggyWinter]

We run the v280 and the c4080 side by side. Only about a year apart in age. Think of the 80/20 rule. The v280 is the 20. And the worst part is the xerox costs are more. I treat the 280 as my back up, and I avoid coated stock except for very short runs as it kills the BTR2. I managed to get a spare btr2 hidden in case I really need it. I was so stupid to sign the xerox contract, and they keep charging me tax at the same time. Over 15 years with xerox, no more.

You can refurbish the 2nd btr. Takes like an hour and the kit will run you about $200 USD. Make sure to replace the brush. It sucks that Xerox is throwing you under the bus, but having your secret squirrel parts stash may be cheaper than waiting on them and losing money on lost jobs if the 280 2nd BTR is toast and your 4080 is down at the same time.

 

[TJPrinter]

In my opinion, the Versant 280 shouldn’t have coated media listed as a printable stock option. Don’t get me wrong, I love everything about the 280 but it can’t run coated stock without causing the 2nd BTR to fail. I’m fortunate that my vendor gives me the ability to have one on the shelf and to order and replace it when it fails. This is just a band aid fix to the issue. I just had one fail after only 28k clicks and the one I just installed isn't even going to make it that far because I’m running a 36 page booklet on coated stock.

I would never recommend a Versant 280 to anyone that plans on running a decent amount of coated stock. I have rebuilt a few 2nd BTR’s back in the COVID days when supplies were not always available and it’s not something I would want to do on a regular bases if I didn’t have a service contract.