4112 vs 8105 reliability per page?

[Netrunner9]

I need some help in picking out new replacement for our current aging copier. Our current Xerox WCP55 is worn out. Our current monthly volume is only 50,000. Yes, only 50k per month. We do have a growth factor of about 10% per year. We run primarily GP 20lb LTR/LGL paper with secondary 24lb 100% rag bond. The copier has peak usage an hour in the morning and one afternoon with a few large jobs a month. I am currently looking at a Xerox 4112 and a Canon 8105(new 7105 with dual bar scanner). They are both overkill for what I need but I really need overkill. Due to price, space and speed(both print and scan) requirements, these 2 machines fit the bill for what I am looking for. We have daily misfeed/jams and a few service calls a month. What I would like is to have our new copier/printer is a misfeed once every 3 months, Now that would be great. The only independent report I can find is one on the 7105 from BLI which reported that there test showed only 6 misfeeds in 900,000 or 1/150k in the 2 months that they tested it. I cannot find anything about the Xerox even though I hear great things. I need some real world advice on reliability for these models or like units. What should my service calls and misfeeds be on these models per month? I would greatly appreciate any advice they you can give me on these or similar units.

Steven

 

[billyinlasvegas]

As someone that prints for a living (900k to 1.3M impressions per month) I can tell you the single biggest factor when it comes to paper jams is the paper you're using and the ammount of toner coverage. If you stay away from large solid black areas (specially near the edge of the page) and use some quality paper you should be ok. Personally I doubt you can only have only 1 jam per 150k copies.

 

[Craig]

Amen Billyinlasvegas! I think those numbers are a little out of touch with reality too.

 

[Netrunner9]

I am currently using GP 20lb Spectrum Multi-Use paper. Is this paper good?

Spectrum® Multi-Use - Georgia-Pacific Communication Papers

Almost all of our printing and copies have a 1 inch border, All with very little coverage, No graphics just text.

I doubt that you can have 1 jam per 150k also. Using rough estimates, what ratios do you see on
paper jams and service calls?

 

[Craig]

Brand may not have much to do with "Good" paper. The environment it is stored in will have more to do than the brand. If you keep it in a nice humid warehouse and buy more than you need so it sits there for months at a time than the "good" paper will become a headache.

 

[Netrunner9]

We keep an 6 week supply in our copy room with A/C and a humidity of less than 50%.

 

[gcspec]

Netrunner,

First off - I am a Xerox rep and am not here to blast the Canon in any way shape or form!! I have had extensive experience with the 41XX models and I can tell you first hand, they are monster boxes. I have a customer whose references I can supply who have 2 of them, each running an average of 800k per month. This is on 40# text weight in a warehouse with a small, store-bought humidifier in the room keeping the level around 42% humidity. They have very few jams or wrinkles and have been running these since 2008. Very happy customers who would love to tell you their story in their own words.

 

[Netrunner9]

Please do. Just send info in an email. That would be great.

 

[Shane]

I have 2 4112's both with freeflow servers and run 20,000-70,000 a month - this is also overkill, but it's what I need. Both machines are workhorses and perform better when you really give them a flogging. I only use Xerox paper (business+) and jams are very rare - a rough guess would be no more than 1/50k. They're so rare it's hard to put a figure on it.

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

Nothin' nice to say on the Xerox 4127....

Nothin' nice to say on the Xerox 4127....

We signed for a "previously loved" 4127 that had 1.2mm on it and were promised it was God's gift to the printing world. The tech's out here (Phoenix, AZ) that are now responsible for the 41xx series are the Nuvera and above techs and rarely see the 41xx platforms. That being said, most of them take a minute to even find the fuser!

I had a ton of issues with the box and Xerox kept not fixing the issues for a month. Finally, enough was enough and we asked politely if they'd remove the unit, then all of the sudden they decide there are issues and start trying to fix it. Nevermind the only reason we signed for it was because it could *reliably* print on 12x18 80# Gloss Text and deliver good quality. Well, it's duplex speed slows to 50% of 11x17 size in the 12x18. It apparently is "outside of spec" to duplex 80# GLS TXT (however the CED says nothing to this). And the image quality is no better then the Ricoh 2090 we've had for almost 5 years.

Don't even get me started on the FreeFlow that came with the unit... (It's not me, I run FreeFlows on our DC5000's and love them, so I know the workflow...)

The only way they finally moved the machine off the production floor was when we said we couldn't take delivery of our second DocuColor 5000 because the 4127 was in the way and we'd have to cancel the order for it as well. It is still sitting in our warehouse in pieces because they are "still working on repairing it". It isn't plugged in and they haven't been here in almost a week, but they are "working on it"...

I Love Xerox's Color group, and [Strongly Dislike] their Monochrome Group. I am very happy with the support we've received from IKON on the Ricoh 2090.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Keness]

And the image quality is no better then the Ricoh 2090 we've had for almost 5 years.

Hmm... That's worrisome. I've been thinking wistfully of the 41xx line since they came out. I did a demo on a 4112 a couple months ago and was actually really impressed with the quality, but not until I used the 156 line screen print quality mode, which I GATHER is an optional thing? (!?) This was very much the key. Until he "enabled" the 156lpi mode, the quality was good in the sense that it was smooth and even and there no banding or streaks or whatever, but it was grainy. Well, not grainy, but you know what I mean. Low line screen.

At 156lpi, though, the line screen was plenty tight to be equal to or possibly even surpass my benchmark.

My benchmark was a color machine's (DC250/WC7675) output in B&W mode, which I've always found to be superb. Until recently I've never been pleased with the output from dedicated B&W machines, so I always use color machines in B&W mode. (I don't pay per click...!)

As you, I'm not a fan of Xerox's monochrome efforts, but that has largely been because all their monochrome machines have been Xerox designs while most of their color machines (not counting solid ink & iGen) are Fuji Xerox designs which, in _my_ opinion, are much better designs.

The 41xx is a Fuji Xerox engine, too, though, which is why I was holding out high hopes. Especially after what I considered a very successful demo.

Can you trick the machine by not telling it the paper is glossy in order to enable your duplex? Perhaps in heavyweight to get the extra time and heat? I do see that the turning radius on the 41xx is much tighter than the DC250 engine, but you're talking text not cover, so I can't imagine that being the problem.

If you ever decide to wash your hands of the 4127 and Xerox forgets about it, give me a call!

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I spent over an hour on the phone trying to find someone that could tell me how to tell the machine that the paper was "coated" forget glossy or matte! Tech's had no clue!

As stated in my previous post, I have 2 DC5000s. The whole point of the 4127 was to pull about 100K/month off the 5000's. If I could get anywhere near a DC240/250/260 print quality I'd love the machine. However, I am seeing the grainy results you mentioned. (No one told me about the 156lpi and the thing was constantly throwing codes so it was *challenging* to do any discovery on my own...

To us, the prints on coated papers looked like copies not prints like the Color Boxes produce on Monochrome. (Solid fill blacks were not even, and were about 85%-90% of black on the Xerox 700 or DC5000.) Another issue for us was the lack of operator adjustments for paper types. Meaning I can't adjust for skew or perpendicularity from the User Interface. A feature I can, and do, adjust on the DC5000/x700 every day. I created a custom paper and was never able to tie the paper type or gsm to the paper name. What is the point of a custom paper when all it houses is the paper size?

Now the only thing in Xerox's line that "can save us" --according to Xerox-- is a Nuvera. Solid looking box, but the cost is a ton comparative to a used 4127 at $16,000. It also seems overkill for only 100K/Month.

With all of my moaning about how bad Xerox is in this post, please keep in mind, I still love the Xerox Color group and haven't found a group better in Phoenix from any provider.

 

[[email protected]]

Xerox 4112

Xerox 4112

We run a Xerox 4110 (same basic unit as the 4112 but came out a couple of years earlier).

We run about 250k per month & now have over 15 million clicks.
The machine has been extremely reliable. Jams are few & far between.

Xerox service in our area has been quite a bit better than Canon (perhaps the most important factor as to which machine to get).

While not up to the service level we get from Xerox on our larger equipment (Nuvera 120 & DC-8000) it is still better than Canon. But that is often a regional issue.

Dave

 

[Keness]

We run a Xerox 4110 (same basic unit as the 4112 but came out a couple of years earlier).

We run about 250k per month & now have over 15 million clicks.
The machine has been extremely reliable. Jams are few & far between.

Xerox service in our area has been quite a bit better than Canon (perhaps the most important factor as to which machine to get).

While not up to the service level we get from Xerox on our larger equipment (Nuvera 120 & DC-8000) it is still better than Canon. But that is often a regional issue.

Dave

That's good news... How do you feel about the print quality? Do you use the embedded controller, or an external Fiery or FreeFlow?

 

[Netrunner9]

Many Thanks to everyone who responded.

Where are the Canon users?

 

[bkaupp]

We two have a 4112 and have been running it for about 2 years, only about 2.5 million clicks on it but have found it to be a reliable machine. Other then a developer housing issue that plagued the techs for a month (created a mottled print instead of its typical nice solids) we get the odd jam with the paper we use, but not more then a couple a month if that. The biggest annoyance has been the cleaning web lifespan. More often then not the cleaning web runs out before the machine's counter does and instead of getting a warning to have a tech come an change it when 5% life is left it just stops and you cannot use the machine. We have worked around he problem by having the techs show us how to chance the web and keeping a back up one in the shop. Xerox also just changed the web I think to make it more customer friendly to replace, as the boxes now come with easy to follow instructions has a special screw head that only the cleaning web uses.

Generally I would agree the output is close the the same as our 242's in black mode both printing and off the glass. Printing on cover stock is not as good as the 242 especially if you're printing images onto a less smooth finish. We have been able to run gloss text thru the machine but find the toner is more matte and looks dull on the gloss.

We have been able to run custom sizes thru it generally with no problem, even slightly smaller then spec and have used the booklet maker with custom sheet sizes.

Overall we quite like the machine.

 

[julianheron]

Another option

Another option

Based on your needs, it may be worthwhile to investigate the Sharp 1100. While its not usually a good fit for people on this forum, in your case it could be just right.