4th unit blues

[Heisenberg]

I have a 4th unit of a sm52 that is picking up colour from the previous 3 units and turning the usually yellow ink very dirty.It is very bad on large coverage of course. Roller settings are to the book the fount has been changed with no impact on pick up. A job on today had large magenta content and the yellow duct had red swirls in it after 800 sheets. Any thoughts fine people?

thanks

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Ink Tacks.
Blanket type
Impression, Plate/blanket squeezes checked
Possible to run lighter colours down first.
ink/water balance.
Press startup too dry.
ink strength (weak strength requires thicker ink films to be run)
Condition of press rollers, Durometers, correct wash up solutions.
Try different manufacturers ink to see if problem persists.

I am sure other folks will add suggestions, Cheers

 

[D Ink Man]

Easy fix. Your yellow is much too strong.

If you have an Ink Film Thickness Gauge measure the mil thickness of each process color, K-C-M-Y. The yellow must be the thickest of all the other colors in the 4th down position, particularly versus the cyan and magenta.

If you do not have an IFT tool, try this. I know it may interefere with your G7 if you employ it, but try it nevertheless. Add 30% of transparent white to your yellow after you have experienced the contaimination issue. Wash up the units and run 5,000 sheets and you will see a definite improvment and cleaner yellow unit. This is only a short term fix to prove to your ink supplier that you have an ink problem. It will be their job to fix it through proper formulation.

By the way what brand and series of process inks do you use?

I am certain this is the answer to your problem. Please follow up after following my prescription. Happy offseting!

D Ink Man

 

[turbotom1052]

Easy fix. Your yellow is much too strong.

If you have an Ink Film Thickness Gauge measure the mil thickness of each process color, K-C-M-Y. The yellow must be the thickest of all the other colors in the 4th down position, particularly versus the cyan and magenta.

If you do not have an IFT tool, try this. I know it may interefere with your G7 if you employ it, but try it nevertheless. Add 30% of transparent white to your yellow after you have experienced the contaimination issue. Wash up the units and run 5,000 sheets and you will see a definite improvment and cleaner yellow unit. This is only a short term fix to prove to your ink supplier that you have an ink problem. It will be their job to fix it through proper formulation.

By the way what brand and series of process inks do you use?

I am certain this is the answer to your problem. Please follow up after following my prescription. Happy offseting!

D Ink Man

I strongly agree with D BUT...... he ended by saying happy offsetting. Be careful that if you do run your yellow with 30 percent transparent white you will need to run your yellow ink sweep up a good bit to match color. This resulting increase of yellow ink thats making it to the sheet will increase your total ink film thickness on the sheet. Be careful to watch for offsetting and increase your powder accordingly. Many people mistakenly believe that when this dirtying of the yellow occurs its a result of ink that is too tacky. This may be true, but you need to remember that a thinner ink film of the same ink will always be tackier than a thicker ink film.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Heisenberg,

mmm IS this problem happening on every 4 colour wet on wet print run you are doing ??

If not - what have you change ? or what are you doing wrong ?

Regards, Alois

 

[David Watson]

Change your rotation?

 

[Heisenberg]

thanks for your input guys its great to get different views on any issue. funnily enough we received a shyte batch of cyan ink(really really badly milled to the point of the worst hickies i have ever seen) so we changed our ink line to a different brand and booyaa no yellow dirtying issue. the press has ran the same inks fr the 2.5 years i have been working at this company with no drama so for this to suddenly just happen almost over night is weird. we are awaiting a newer batch of cyan and now yellow and will re visit them in the near future. cheers

 

[turbotom1052]

thanks for your input guys its great to get different views on any issue. funnily enough we received a shyte batch of cyan ink(really really badly milled to the point of the worst hickies i have ever seen) so we changed our ink line to a different brand and booyaa no yellow dirtying issue. the press has ran the same inks fr the 2.5 years i have been working at this company with no drama so for this to suddenly just happen almost over night is weird. we are awaiting a newer batch of cyan and now yellow and will re visit them in the near future. cheers

The sudden change you refer to could very well be the ink companies change of suppliers, or change in manufacturing, to a less costly alternative. In the ever increasing quest to save money, manufacturers, to include printers wind up in my opinion pushing the envelope too far. The sad part of this fact is that often there is not a corresponding understanding of a compromised process. The expectation seems to often be that press crews deliver more with less!!! Its this mindset that causes even the most conscientious of employees to develop job affecting frustrations and moral crushing attitudes. All this is made worse in a case were pure greed on the part of company owners is what begins this decline. Its understandable if a company needs to do this just to stay alive but its sad when its brought on by unreasonable greed. Its these very common attitudes within the industry that has me grateful for an early retirement, and the ability to turn my back on an industry that for many years was so good to me and to many others.

 

[D Ink Man]

thanks for your input guys its great to get different views on any issue. funnily enough we received a shyte batch of cyan ink(really really badly milled to the point of the worst hickies i have ever seen) so we changed our ink line to a different brand and booyaa no yellow dirtying issue. the press has ran the same inks fr the 2.5 years i have been working at this company with no drama so for this to suddenly just happen almost over night is weird. we are awaiting a newer batch of cyan and now yellow and will re visit them in the near future. cheers

Don't understand. Went from a 4th unit yellow being contaminated, to a problem pronounced to be related to a poor grind cyan. And then.... switch to an entirely different ink brand series. What have we learned here? Nothing really. My quest in any endeavor is of course to fix a problem, but much more importantly, WE NEED TO KNOW WHY we had the problem. Very frustrating.

D Ink Man

 

[turbotom1052]

Don't understand. Went from a 4th unit yellow being contaminated, to a problem pronounced to be related to a poor grind cyan. And then.... switch to an entirely different ink brand series. What have we learned here? Nothing really. My quest in any endeavor is of course to fix a problem, but much more importantly, WE NEED TO KNOW WHY we had the problem. Very frustrating.

D Ink Man

I feel confident that the dilution of the yellow ink with transparent white will be the absolute cure. I just couldn't resist the opportunity to voice a rant over something that I see as plaguing the industry.

 

[D Ink Man]

I feel confident that the dilution of the yellow ink with transparent white will be the absolute cure. I just couldn't resist the opportunity to voice a rant over something that I see as plaguing the industry.

??? "This is only a short term fix to prove to your ink supplier that you have an ink problem. It will be their job to fix it through proper formulation." ???

There are other plagues in the industry.

D

 

[turbotom1052]

your right D the problem needs to be identified before it can be fixed. When you consider that an inks pigment is its most costly component it would seem to me that an ink company would be rushing to fix this particular issue. Lets hope that the ink company has the ability to react quickly instead of getting itself bogged down with multiple layers of delay.

 

[D Ink Man]

The ink companies have been paired down so much they are now lacking and at a disadvantage. Why?

Consolidation of product lines and a true shortage of available, qualified technical reps to do diagnosis. Touching on the Ink Sales thread, printers often go with 'lowest price' which results in no service, especially for low volume users. This is an opportunity for smart ink companies to take advantage of, by offering these services. It will help the printer overcome issues as well as fetch a better price for the ink companies.

The fat cats of both involved don't care and fail to realize this. Hence, a post like this. Throw another series at them and maybe we'll get lucky. Poor methodology in my opinion.

D

 

[turbotom1052]

either throw another series at them or blame the paper, chemistry, press, pressman ect. Is there really a shortage of qualified tech reps, or is it that nobody wants to make a full time commitment to a tech rep and offer a salary and benefits that would have a qualified guy even wanting the job? Id bet its the later. If its not, then make me an offer. I think that over 35 years in a multicolor sheetfed environment, as both a pressman, and in a supervisory capacity qualifies me.

 

[CD102]

You can run a little bit more fountain solution overall on fourth unit or you can soften the yellow ink.

 

[turbotom1052]

cd... softening the ink is effectively what is being accomplished when you reduce the inks strength with transparent white WITHOUT the negative effects of ink reducer. As mentioned before a thicker ink film is LESS tacky than a thinner ink film. Yellow ink picking up contamination from previous colors will pretty much 100 percent respond to a thicker ink film.

 

[D Ink Man]

I believe to be qualified as a legitimate technical service representative it is very important to have experience. Further, having 25 years or 35 years experience, 1 year repeated 25 times is not the ideal candidate.

A rep that has traversed many different pressrooms, conditions, and consumables would be the best. This persomn than would have the vast experience and girth of countless issues and problems in countless scenarios.

Just think about that a bit. That is the rareness that is lacking and mostly unavailable because of faulty evolution.

D Ink Man

 

[turbotom1052]

I believe to be qualified as a legitimate technical service representative it is very important to have experience. Further, having 25 years or 35 years experience, 1 year repeated 25 times is not the ideal candidate.

A rep that has traversed many different pressrooms, conditions, and consumables would be the best. This persomn than would have the vast experience and girth of countless issues and problems in countless scenarios.

Just think about that a bit. That is the rareness that is lacking and mostly unavailable because of faulty evolution.

D Ink Man

so at what point in that evolutionary process does the tech rep actually become competent? Wouldn't you agree that the process begins somewhere? How bout actual experience in a production setting as opposed to a twice a year visit to a shop when theres trouble, where a bunch of fancy measuring devices are pulled out resulting in more questions than answers? Ive seen my fair share of tech reps that come in and do nothing but point fingers at the other vendors. And some of them were even seasoned veterans. Forgive me for questioning the competence of a guy that worked his way up through the ranks of bullshit salesman/bullshit artist. You know the old adage... those that know do. those that don't teach.

 

[D Ink Man]

Some never become competent because all they care about is a stipend and floating through a career with little care and regard to actually help their paying ink buyer customer.


They usually can be easily identified. The biggest giveaway is the shirt on their back. If a 'tech' comes into the pressroom wearing long sleeves and not short sleeves there is a fraud. Rolling one's sleeves up and acting like they are performing technical meaningful service is as rare as hens teeth. A real tech will always be wearing short sleeved attire, no matter what the season, weather, location or temperature.


Another great sign of a fradulent service man is one that comes in and immediately starts flaunting and offering his business card. A real bad one will normally reach into his fancy gold trimmed busimness card holder and present the card using only 2 fingers, his forefinger and index. Once this close their is no doubt that the smell of his cologne, his pizza for pressroom buying powers and the ultimate football ticket giveaway is right around the corner. Normally these fellows will have a title like "TECHNICAL SALES MANAGER". Once you see anything with "SALES", most times you can be sure that you are in for a long ride to the destination of nowhere.


I can offer more, but you should be able to start to get the idea of where I am coming from and the understanding I possess to these regards. Happy setoffing!


D

 

[turbotom1052]

perhaps we can cut right to the chase D and fast forward about 35 years beyond the ink on paper lessons learned my first 5 years of actually DOING the job. I am fully able to grasp the finer points of ink on paper, to include all the impressive terminology, and also equally able to spot the real techs from the failed salesman/posers!!! I suppose at this point we need to just agree to disagree as to the best candidates for a job as a tech rep.