A look at how offset production can and should work.

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Gordon,

IF "Employee Development, Compensation and Satisfaction" are set as criteria or target, it does not mater that quality and profitability goals are being achieved. Target #3 remains in place!

Al
 
I'm not disagreeing with you. However, for example, a term like "quality", although heavily used in this industry, is so vague as to be meaningless. So, if someone like you can bring clarity to the term in this context, I'm sure that it would be greatly appreciated and provide food for thought and discussion.

Gordo

For print customers, it is printings and total throughput that exceeds the customers expections.

That is an often redundant phrase, 'exceeds the customers expectations', but than again, it is a result, that is truly seldom met, overtly or covertly.

Think about it Gordon. D
 
Gordon,

IF "Employee Development, Compensation and Satisfaction" are set as criteria or target, it does not mater that quality and profitability goals are being achieved. Target #3 remains in place!

Al

I would argue that in today's highly automated prouction systems, Web to Print workflows, standardization of output, and low employment prospects environment, Employee Development, Compensation and [job] Satisfaction for non-customer facing positions have low to no importance. So I wouldn't include those factors as a metric for success for a company like ESP.

Best, gordo
 
For print customers, it is printings and total throughput that exceeds the customers expections.

That is an often redundant phrase, 'exceeds the customers expectations', but than again, it is a result, that is truly seldom met, overtly or covertly.

Think about it Gordon. D

I have thought about it. I was interested in your thoughts, not mine.
The thing is that once you define a fuzzy term like "quality" then it allows you to have the conversation about what metrics (objective, measurable data points) can be used to evaluate the company to determine whether it is actually delivering that "quality" or not. It also allows you implement new systems, and methodologies that may enhance the company's ability to be a quality supplier - if that was the company's goal.
(I would be cautious about an unqualified goal of exceeding customer expectations because in the context of print production that may be a dangerous goal to set.)

Now, reading that article again in the context of what you consider important, ESP, might be falling short from a "quality" point of view. The only element mentioned that related to customers is that the customers should go elsewhere if they wanted a substrate other than what ESP has standardized on. ESP's main stated goal was to drive waste out of the production process. Customer expectations were not mentioned.
I'm not saying that ESP is not a "quality" printer, they may well be. But that aspect of their business was not included in the article by either the author or the owner of the company.

Makes one think doesn't it?

Gordo
 
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I have thought about it. I was interested in your thoughts, not mine.
The thing is that once you define a fuzzy term like "quality" then it allows you to have the conversation about what metrics (objective, measurable data points) can be used to evaluate the company to determine whether it is actually delivering that "quality" or not. It also allows you implement new systems, and methodologies that may enhance the company's ability to be a quality supplier.
I would be cautious about an unqualified goal of exceeding customer expectations because in the context of print production that may be a dangerous goal to set.

Gordo

It will not be 'dangerous' if you follow the path of excellence, which is simply the straight and narrow, with todays technology, which is still elementary, as I have eluded to. D
 
I have thought about it. I was interested in your thoughts, not mine.
The thing is that once you define a fuzzy term like "quality" then it allows you to have the conversation about what metrics (objective, measurable data points) can be used to evaluate the company to determine whether it is actually delivering that "quality" or not. It also allows you implement new systems, and methodologies that may enhance the company's ability to be a quality supplier - if that was the company's goal.
(I would be cautious about an unqualified goal of exceeding customer expectations because in the context of print production that may be a dangerous goal to set.)

Now, reading that article again in the context of what you consider important, ESP, might be falling short from a "quality" point of view. The only element mentioned that related to customers is that the customers should go elsewhere if they wanted a substrate other than what ESP has standardized on. ESP's main stated goal was to drive waste out of the production process. Customer expectations were not mentioned.
I'm not saying that ESP is not a "quality" printer, they may well be. But that aspect of their business was not included in the article by either the author or the owner of the company.

Makes one think doesn't it?

Gordo

Gordo,
I think the stat of £13,000 rework on sales cost (true absorbed cost of £5500) out of £12.9 million of sales /14,132 orders in 2012 (rework is less than £2k YTD this fiscal) combined with the fact we hit ISO 12647/2 100% 7 times in one week across all 3 presses last week and our average retains a high 90's score each week, should hopefull go someway to answer the quality question.

Any deviation on delta E is highlighted by email to myself straight from our own real time internal QC software and immediate reprofiling through colorflow etc takes place on the fly.

The excitng part lays in the challenge that there is still room for improvement from the business, subject to our capital equipment and raw material/consuamble partners contiuning to work with us.

Obviously client engagement and education is absolutely paramount in this, subjectivity is not something we deal in with regards to on press requirements.

Hope that helps.
 
Gentlemen,


I suggest we read - W.Edwards Deming's 14 Points to Quality




Regards, Alois

I am a great fan of Deming.

He highly values the development of theory and does not value experience much when dealing with new problems.

We should follow Deming more. I totally agree.
 
The excitng part lays in the challenge that there is still room for improvement from the business, subject to our capital equipment and raw material/consuamble partners contiuning to work with us.

Anthony, you are very brave to come into this den of disbelief. Normally logic and rational thought don't always work too well in such a environment but sometimes it does. So sometimes it is worth the risk.

Yes, I agree that there is still a lot of room for improvements. Irrespective to what the many experienced printing individuals on this forum might say, there is still a lot of faults in the process that need to be corrected. Sometimes the best option is to ignore their views and just go with what you believe might be a path forward.

Anyhow, back to the potential of the process and therefore the business.

Colour consistency and predictability with fast response of the press is at the heart of the printing part of the operation. There is room there for improvement. Even on modern offset presses, there are no mechanical components that are directly related to the amount of ink that is fed into the press roller train. The position of the ink key is not directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the press.

Surely a consistent ink feed should result in a consistent and predictable print density. Unfortunately this is not an accepted idea in the industry but maybe you can understand it. Your Inpress technology probably does a good job of maintaining density control but what it is mainly doing is maintaining ink feed which was not designed properly by the press manufacturer in the first place.

Ink key presetting. This is also critical to the initial set up. Unfortunately most ink key presetting algorithms do not properly calculate the ink requirements for each ink key. Proof of this can be seen from looking at the presetting values you might be using and comparing them to the values the Inpress system finally obtains. If they tend to be different, then one must assume that the initial ink key presetting values were not calculate properly.

You have a press most likely with a ductor roller that moves and takes ink from the ink fountain roller to the roller train. With such a technology it is almost impossible to obtain an accurate zero setting for the ink keys. I define the zero setting as the point where the net ink feed into the press is just at zero. Any increase in the ink key position and ink will go into the press. This is important because the zero set point is the datum for any ink key presetting values. It is a major factor affecting accuracy.

So you have the Inpress system which is fine and it overcomes the limitations of not having a positive ink feed, or an accurate presetting algorithm or an accurate zero set Datum point.

But by not starting at the right values, the press will start to go in the wrong direction with respect to colour for a short time before the Inpress system can recover from that condition. That takes time and paper. That is where there is an opportunity.

Closed loop systems are fine but they only respond to disturbances that move colour off its target while in principle a forced ink feed is consistent and independent of those disturbances.

There are so many issues with the press that can be improved and I am pretty sure there are also issues with prepress that can be made more predictable. Unfortunately, the industry is not so interested in finding new ways and is more interested in protecting old knowledge and thinking with expensive technology.
 
Gordo,
I think the stat of £13,000 rework on sales cost (true absorbed cost of £5500) out of £12.9 million of sales /14,132 orders in 2012 (rework is less than £2k YTD this fiscal) combined with the fact we hit ISO 12647/2 100% 7 times in one week across all 3 presses last week and our average retains a high 90's score each week, should hopefull go someway to answer the quality question.

Thanks for participating in this forum. Not to put too fine a point on "quality" - if your hitting ISO 12647-2 in their presswork was the expectation of your customers then your performance is laudable. However if that is not the expectation or requirement of your customers then your performance capability in hitting ISO 12647-2 is of no value. It's akin to a clothing store having only one color of clothing. No matter how perfect the clothes match that single color - if that's a color I don't like then I'll take my custom elsewhere.
You have, and continue to, fine tune your manufacturing processes. Your methodologies are something that many printers can learn from. However, steamlining the manufacturing process, or adhering to a specification does not necessarily translate into the company being a "quality" supplier - i.e. one that meets or exceeds customer expectations.

Best Gordo
 
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Erik you are a great man of theory.

You just need to learn where to place your nose in this world. Get it out of that dark and smelly place, a place where you can get a little sunburn on on it.

You'll feel better and the burn will heal.

You've ticlked Mr. Thirlby's innards very adequately with the opening thread.

Now carry on without thoughts of personal gain and the quest for someone to believe your E=MC2.

I respect you, but....... C'mon Man!

Trust me. D
 
Thanks fir participating in this forum. Not to put too fine a point on "quality" - if your hitting ISO 12647-2 in their presswork was the expectation of your customers then your performance is laudable. However if that is not the expectation or requirement of your customers then your performance capability in hitting ISO 12647-2 is of no value. It's akin to a clothing store having only one color of clothing. No matter how perfect the clothes match that singke color - if that's a color I don't like then I'll take my custom elsewhere.
You have, and continue to, fine tune your manufacturing processes. Your methodologies are something that many printers can learn from. However, steamlining the manufacturing process, or adhering to a specification does not necessarily translate into the company being a "quality" supplier - i.e. one that meets or exceeds customer expectations.

Best Gordo

Very good Mr. Pritchard. Thank you for your practical perspective.

D Ink Man
 
Thanks fir participating in this forum. Not to put too fine a point on "quality" - if your hitting ISO 12647-2 in their presswork was the expectation of your customers then your performance is laudable. However if that is not the expectation or requirement of your customers then your performance capability in hitting ISO 12647-2 is of no value. It's akin to a clothing store having only one color of clothing. No matter how perfect the clothes match that singke color - if that's a color I don't like then I'll take my custom elsewhere.
You have, and continue to, fine tune your manufacturing processes. Your methodologies are something that many printers can learn from. However, steamlining the manufacturing process, or adhering to a specification does not necessarily translate into the company being a "quality" supplier - i.e. one that meets or exceeds customer expectations.

Best Gordo

Gordon, in manufacturing there are statistical ways to determine quality. It is related to the reduction of variation and to predictability. The manufacturing goals are a bit different than the business metrics but they are just as valid for the purpose.

Yes, one should satisfy the customer and maybe not over satisfy them unnecessarily, but to improve productivity, the level of quality in the manufacturing operation might need to be higher from a statistical point of view to be able to gain greater efficiencies.

The Quality Movement very strongly believed that pursuing quality ie the reduction of variation, would lead to not only benefits to greater capacity, waste reduction but also to customer satisfaction.

With the Lean Movement we have today, I think the goals of the Quality Movement have been lost in the pursuit of trying to gain waste reductions without the effort to actually gain quality in the process. It is a subtle difference of view but one I think is important.

From a business point of view, if the customers are happy then the quality is sufficient but there is still room and need for improvement in statistical quality which might not be perceived by the customer but will be seen by the bottom line. Internal improvements are not necessarily for the customer at some point. They are for the business.

I would think that the customers that deal with ESP Colour are asking for a specification to be supplied. If the specification is met, how can one argue about the quality?
 
Gordon, in manufacturing there are statistical ways to determine quality. It is related to the reduction of variation and to predictability. The manufacturing goals are a bit different than the business metrics but they are just as valid for the purpose.

Absolutely

The Quality Movement very strongly believed that pursuing quality ie the reduction of variation, would lead to not only benefits to greater capacity, waste reduction but also to customer satisfaction.

If you define "quality" as the reduction of variation..then yes. But, to me, the reduction of variation is an aspect of quality in manufacturing - it is not the sole goal.

From a business point of view, if the customers are happy then the quality is sufficient but there is still room and need for improvement in statistical quality which might not be perceived by the customer but will be seen by the bottom line. Internal improvements are not necessarily for the customer at some point. They are for the business.

Yes.

I would think that the customers that deal with ESP Colour are asking for a specification to be supplied. If the specification is met, how can one argue about the quality?

Absolutely. ESP will attract those customers for whom an adherence to delivering an industry defined print characteristic within a specific tolerance is the requirement. They are also willing to sacrifice a degree of choice in order to achieve that goal. For those customers ESP will be a quality service provider that is also leveraging technology to reduce costs and wastage while enabling their expectations be met.

For other print buyers, the limitation of ESP's print characteristic would make them the last choice in printshop choices.

The lesson of ESP is that of leveraging the technology that's available, pushing suppliers to innovate, and working with suppliers to achieve an effective and efficient print service and manufacturing facility.

best, gordo
 
For other print buyers, the limitation of ESP's print characteristic would make them the last choice in printshop choices.

The lesson of ESP is that of leveraging the technology that's available, pushing suppliers to innovate, and working with suppliers to achieve an effective and efficient print service and manufacturing facility.

best, gordo

Agreed.

Even though ESP might have some limitations on its print characteristics, the idea that being innovative can be applied to any operation. When comparing similar businesses, the ones that can reduce internal costs etc. can have a significant advantage.

The general idea is that if one can increase volumes, this in it self lowers internal variable costs per unit of production. If one can increase the volumes by also improving the process so that there is less time wasted by the use of innovation, the fixed and variable costs are reduced further. If one can reduce waste, again that reduces the material costs per unit.

When one has lower costs, this means one can reduce prices while still having suitable margins. Lower prices attract more volume and increases the advantage. Also attracting more volume takes it away from the competition and thereby increases the internal costs of the competition.

There can be tipping point where one company gets richer while others get poorer due to the control and the reductions of the internal costs. The reduction of internal costs is a business and marketing strategy.

So I would have to agree with what Anthony Thirlby has said about his business. That anyone could follow the same path. The real fact is that most will not. It does not take a niche operation to benefit from this kind of strategy. It does take people with some desire to do it.

I am a great believer in a sustainable competitive advantage based on specific knowledge and technology that is not so easily available to others. It is not about any specific technology but about how some technology and knowledge can be leveraged and used to get an advantage that will systemically build on itself.

People for years have gotten the wrong idea about what I have tried to do. They tend to think I am mainly about technology and science. To a certain extent this is true but the real drive is to find out what is needed to get a competitive advantage. I develop the science and technical concepts to support the business needs.

That is why I like what is being tried at ESP Colour. They may not fully understand the science but they are trying to drive out internal costs in a systemic and holistic way within their model. One can not say that for most printers.
 

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