Acrobat changing colors unexpectedly

[pajdzn]

Ok, here is a poser that I need help with. I have a 2 page flyer which is 4C on one side and 5C on the other. I use Prinergy EVO 5.1.6 and refine to single pages. Everything works fine through our regular workflow but there is an issue when we try to create combined pdfs to send to clients. I just noticed that the order and way that I combine them affects the color! If I open Pg1, which is 4 color, and then import Pg2, which is 4 color plus one spot, and have the Output Preview window open, the spot colored areas disappear!!! But if I reverse the order and open Pg2 and import Pg1, the colors are fine. This only happens if the Output Preview window is open when I import.

And if I do this with the files before ripping them in Prinergy, the spot color converts to process instead of disappearing!!!

I know I can work around this problem but am concerned about why Acrobat is messing with my colors.

Any ideas?

 

[Dov Isaacs]

It is virtually impossible to determine what is really going on without looking at the before and after files themselves. Make no assumptions that Acrobat is doing something wrong. It could just as easily be the Kodak software and their Refiner component. At Adobe, we are not aware of any such problems with Acrobat such as you describe.

Given that the original artwork is (based upon reading your posting) a perfectly fine PDF file, why aren't you sending that file to the client?

Based on the version number, I assume that you have access to use of the Adobe PDF Print Engine technology which doesn't require the so-called refining process. The PDF directly created via export or save from modern applications is exceptionally reliable and recreating a PDF via distillation of PostScript (that's much of what the Refiner does) doesn't really seem to make any sense at all.

- Dov

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Are you sure it isn't prinergy messing things up? I susspect you have different flows in prinergy and that is where you have some small difference. Are you using some PDFx version? If you are dealing with non flattened work PDFx4 is best choice.

 

[rich apollo]

Aha! I recreated the issue. If I do as the original poster says with the Output Preview window open I see the behavior described.

The issue is with the Output Preview. The spot color separation is still present (I confirmed it with PitStop), but the Output Preview and the Ink Manager won't update with the additional separation. Save the file, close, and reopen; then Output Preview and Ink Manager show the spot separation. Looks like something is keeping Output Preview from updating on the fly.

If I import the pages without having the Output Preview window open then all is fine.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Nice debugg rich

 

[Glenn McDowall]

It's the same behaviour with the Output Preview if you add a new spot colour to a PDF with pitstop, I don't think the output preview was ever envisaged to reflect real-time changes.

 

[c.mason]

I have seen that same issue. I have a lot of experience with spot color work dating back to day before Acrobat 6. Acrobat has done always done that - at least since Acrobat 6. Acrobat will not render the Spot colors used in pages added to a CMYK pdf (or any pdf without that spot color already in use). It does seem to work the other way though. Adding the CMYK pages to the Spot color pdf will generally be OK. My other work around has been to open the spot color pdf in Illustrator. You have to have the fonts or outline the type, but just opening the pdf in Illustrastor resaving it seem to reorganize the pdf allowing the spot color to render when adding the page to a CMYK pdf. Remember not to tinker with a pdf that has already been through the workflow unless you plan to run it through the workflow again to retrap. If you plan to edit the Refined (Kodak) or Normalized (Heidelberg) pdf and run it through the workflow again, be sure your workflow is set up to remove existing trap layers.

 

[leonardr]

Acrobat has done always done that - at least since Acrobat 6. Acrobat will not render the Spot colors used in pages added to a CMYK pdf (or any pdf without that spot color already in use).

I am not sure what you mean by "Acrobat will not render spot colors".

Acrobat doesn't know about actual inks - so when it encounters a "named colorant" in a PDF (known internally as a Separation Colorspace), it falls back to the Alternate Color (provided in the PDF). But we always render the object as specified in the PDF.

My other work around has been to open the spot color pdf in Illustrator. You have to have the fonts or outline the type, but just opening the pdf in Illustrastor resaving it seem to reorganize the pdf allowing the spot color to render when adding the page to a CMYK pdf.

This sounds like one of those things that you did one during the dawn of history - it helped you solve a single problem - and so you've continued to use it for all problems. STOP IT!!!!

 

[c.mason]

Leonard,
You seem very knowledgeable about the workings of Adobe Acrobat and it sounds like my nomenclature is not correct. The issue at hand is spot color objects on individual pdf pages failing to appear when that page is added to a pdf not previously containing that specific spot color.

I would find it very helpful if you would outline likely causes of such an issue and provide possible solutions.

Thank you,

 

[Stephen Marsh]

As a very quick test, I just tried "inserting" a spot colour PDF into a different PDF that did not originally contain the same spot colours. I have not tried the "combine" method.

Yes, I agree - the display/preview was wacky, not the same as the original spot colour file preview (both docs were open and I was flipping back between them to view).

I then saved and closed down the combined PDF that had the incorrect display.

When I re-opend the combined PDF the file displayed correctly, exactly the same as the original document.

I did not take the test further with RIPing or output (Acrobat 9).


Stephen Marsh

 

[leonardr]

You seem very knowledgeable about the workings of Adobe Acrobat

That's what happens when you are the Adobe's PDF Architect .

The issue at hand is spot color objects on individual pdf pages failing to appear when that page is added to a pdf not previously containing that specific spot color.

I would find it very helpful if you would outline likely causes of such an issue and provide possible solutions.

Happy to help, just need to know one thing...

What do you mean by "that page is added to a PDF"? Are you using Adobe Acrobat to insert a page from one document into another? Are you using Adobe Acrobat to overlay one page on top of another?

What is your EXACT WORKFLOW (what tools, versions, etc.) that are you doing that after it happens the color no longer appears?

 

[c.mason]

Yes - "that page is added to a PDF" I am using the Acrobat 'Insert Page'

Say a booklet is a reprint. All the customer wants to change is the spot color of the duotone cover (i.e. from Reflex Blue & K to PANTONE Green & K). So I might use the Acrobat 'Replace Page' to insert the new cover page with its new color into the previous pdf. This issue is not workflow specific because it takes place while creating a pdf prior to the RIP.

We do have Enfocus Pitstop plug-in installed, but no other special tools.

 

[leonardr]

Say a booklet is a reprint. All the customer wants to change is the spot color of the duotone cover (i.e. from Reflex Blue & K to PANTONE Green & K). So I might use the Acrobat 'Replace Page' to insert the new cover page with its new color into the previous pdf. This issue is not workflow specific because it takes place while creating a pdf prior to the RIP.

We do have Enfocus Pitstop plug-in installed, but no other special tools.

Replace Pages does what the name implies - it takes the page CONTENT from one page and drops it in place of another. Should work just fine.

One alternative is to Insert Pages (on the new page) and then Delete Pages (on the old one). It's a bit more "brute force" than Replace but sometimes that's necessary.