Acrobat - locked PDFs - RIP

[kaiserwilhelm]

Am I missing something here? I want to be able to lock a pdf from edit (IE, Pitstop). However, of course, I also want the PDF to be able to RIP.
I am using Trueflow 7. I get an error when I go to RIP.
I assume that all rips have similar issues.

Is there an easy way to insure that my PDF will not be edited once I release to another production facility?

 

[ansoft]

Hi,
Why don't you want an approve system? RitePortal and RiteApprove are Screen products for such users like you. You upload the file to the TF and then approve it. If you do not approve the file, they cannot expose and print.

Regards!

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

That is not the point at all. Not an issue of Approve. We looked into that a LONG time ago.

I want to be able to make PDFs and send them to my vendors. IE, I do not print envelopes at my facility. I want to make the PDF of the envelope, tell MY customer that it will look the same, and move on.
To do this, I need to lock the PDF. However, If I lock the PDF, the RIP will not RIP it.

 

[Mike Z]

Have you thought about converting the type to outlines?

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

I have thought of that. However, the experts from Adobe will tell you that that is the WRONG thing to do. Screws up transparency, etc. Also, the I's get fat on the PDF. They don't really plate fat, but it freaks out customers. Been there. Done that.

 

[leonardr]

Am I missing something here? I want to be able to lock a pdf from edit (IE, Pitstop). However, of course, I also want the PDF to be able to RIP.
I am using Trueflow 7. I get an error when I go to RIP.
I assume that all rips have similar issues.

that would be a BAD assumption. As long as you gave the permission to PRINT the PDF, there is no reason that a RIP shouldn't be able to print.

What if you open in Acrobat and print directly?

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

Leonard, I was hoping I would get you to join this discussion.
I am going to speak to Screen today. I gave it permission to print (hi-res was the option)
The only thing I want to lock is the ability to manipulate the type via Pitstop.
I just cannot believe that I am the first to ask this? I searched the forum prior to posting. I would think that hi-res, ready to run, SAFE, locked down pdfs, are the wave of the future?

 

[Shawn]

Am I missing something here? I want to be able to lock a pdf from edit (IE, Pitstop). However, of course, I also want the PDF to be able to RIP.
I am using Trueflow 7. I get an error when I go to RIP.
I assume that all rips have similar issues.

Is there an easy way to insure that my PDF will not be edited once I release to another production facility?

that would be a BAD assumption. As long as you gave the permission to PRINT the PDF, there is no reason that a RIP shouldn't be able to print.

What if you open in Acrobat and print directly?

When you think about it, we're really talking about two parts of the process here... The print command, where data is sent to the printer works fine on a locked PDF -- if the permissions are set properly.

The real issue that we're discussing is that most workflows for commercial printing require some sort of RIPping, or Normalizing or Preprocessing to make it so the data that's being fed into the workflow is formatted correctly for specific press conditions. That requires some sort of "editing" of the PDF data by the workflow during processing to trap the file or apply color management, etc. and that runs into the permissions issues when locked PDFs are supplied.

Unless you know the exact settings to assign for the final print vendor when your Trueflow Workflow creates the file I don't see an easy way to "lock" and only allow printing on any RIP and workflow o.

I run into it with Prinergy as well. There is a "bypass refine" setting that could allow locked, pre-processed files to be printed -- if print rights are assigned -- but I've never used it on a customer supplied, locked PDF since they normally don't include any trapping and could have a wide variety of things wrong with them. I suppose that it would be possible but it would require some communication and testing first, not to mention discussions about liability if the incoming PDFs were prepared incorrectly. In the long run it would probably be less reliable than just turning off the security on the input PDFs and proofing everything carefully.



Wait a second...

What if you open in Acrobat and print directly?

Leonard, If I didn't know any better I'd think that this means printing .ps from Acrobat and processing that. Sounds suspiciously close to refrying.

Shawn

 

[michaelejahn]

@ Kaiser Wilhelm,

Can we assume that you are familiar with setting the PDF security settings ( Under File menu, select Properties, click over Security Tab, change Security Method to Password Security - select for "Printing Allowed: High Resolution" and "Changes Allowed: None" )...

And that you workflow system or RIP will not process such files ?

Or, is that approach problematic for you in some way? ( if so - please expand )

Just to be crystal clear - your ask is - that you would like a PDF file that lets people open and view it, but not be able to modify, delete or add and objects ( specifically type ) within Acrobat, or with some additional plug-in like PitStop, or some other application...

- BUT - you want any "RIP" application to be able to parse it, interpret it into a display list and render it into some bitmap for imaging onto a digital printing device, filmsetter or plate setter ?

As far as I know, you "really" can have it both ways. If you can RIP it, you can parse it, and if you can parse it, you can edit it.

Been that way since PDF was just P ( PostScript )

What many folks ( when they need to share a PDF for "print Review" is either have some 'system' that presents a rendered "picture" to the user ( think "like Google maps") or actually RIP it to a CT/LW type file ( that makes it a PAIN to edit it ) - and send a link to such a PDF...

I have even heard of folks creating a set of screened bitmaps and re-combining that...

I am NOT here to recommend these approaches - just sharing what I have seen in the wild...

If this is not clear as to what I am speaking about - or if you are just curious as to what a trapped / rendered and or trapped, rendered screened PDF "looks like" - feel free to have a look at the three items here;

ACCOUNT: order status


item 1 - typical PDF no security ( has an object that overprints ) - it is that vertical light blue rectangle near the upper left corner of the design

item 2 - a CT/LW trapped PDF ( that is, this is a bitmap - no vectors )

item 3 - a set of trapped / screened 1 bit tiff files 'colorized' for display ( CMYK )

and Kaiser - no offence - but there is nothing futuristic about PDF that are loced down - that is PDF/A - - if anything, we want flexibility. For every 1 person who demanded a file be locked, I hear 100 requests for "EMERGENCY - we need to fix this before we print it - HELP!"

Sorry, that is what I see everyday here in the "we need to print shorter runs faster" world here at PressWise.com customer land...

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

@ Kaiser Wilhelm,

Can we assume that you are familiar with setting the PDF security settings ( Under File menu, select Properties, click over Security Tab, change Security Method to Password Security - select for "Printing Allowed: High Resolution" and "Changes Allowed: None" )...

And that you workflow system or RIP will not process such files ?


Michael - yes, this is what I am trying to accomplish. I have Outer files for #10 Envelopes that are print and convert. IE, they have to match a die. My company gets in 10 files and we produce 8. We send 2 of these away to a vendor. The vendor opens the INDD, the fonts, etc, and then manages to screw things up by making the logo upside down on the flap, etc. (If you have ever worked with Print and convert, you know what I mean.)
My customer is asking me to get the die ahead of time, do ALL of the prepress work to the PDF (fit the die, etc)....LOCK the PDF to editing, get approval from my customer, and THEN send the locked PDF to my vendor.
Does that help?
I can do all of the above. However, I cannot RIP that PDF that I just sent (assuming they have Trueflow).....

 

[Stephen Marsh]

When it comes to editing of text in a PDF, for most print service providers the PDF is generally considered to be a final [locked] format! They are not going to wish to go in there are edit things, specifically text - unless they had to and were probably being paid to do so. The PDF is not locked with security, however the PDF format will preserve the original fonts and line breaks while still allowing them to perform common prepress tasks on the file for output.

So why worry about somebody editing the text in the PDF? I would not wish to do it with Acrobat Pro and I would still be hesitant with an addition to Acrobat such as PitStop. @kaiser, have you had bad experiences with service providers editing text in your PDF files and then screwing them up?


Stephen Marsh

 

[rich apollo]

RIPping and trapping are editing.

Yes, I believe you will find the limitation on RIPping locked-down PDFs to be common among most, if not all, of the front-ends. It's a matter of honoring what's in the file. So, for example, if you had a PDF containing protected intellectual property you would not want someone to be able to RIP, trap, print and distribute it.

 

[michaelejahn]

@ Stephen Marsh - hopefully this story might help..

- When I worked at Compose System, we had a design form that wanted to take their Adobe Illustrator PDF file designs and send them out for approval. These were Beer label designs. The customer would then share these designs with the carton manufacturer. The carton designer would open up the designs and modify them to make them 'work' on a carton. The label Designer could not fire the customer, but was pissed that their work would always show up on the cartons and they would never get any of the carton work. They solved this by sending un-editable CT/LW PDF files - they could not be scaled of "modified" like one could do with an illustrator file. The customer was forced to award the carton design work back to the label designer.

This is a true story, and one that should help anyone understand why some folks want a locked down file.

All the customer really needed was a way to see if the file would separate as required ( these labels had silver and white ink plates ) - yes, they were already trapped, but they really didn't want some hack tearing the designs apart so the customer could save money on the carton design.

Hope that helps.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks for the story Michael! Yes, I have been there myself when I was in production, attempting to make things hard for unscrupulous clients or competitive service providers to RIP off our work.

That being said, in this case, if the "security" is creating more problems than the benefits it brings, should one use it? It is not so much repurposing the file that is the concern in this case, it is stopping other parties editing the text. My point being that most service providers are not going to edit the PDF text if they can help it, so why worry?

If this is to protect IP, then fine, I was not getting that impression from kaiser's posts.

Stephen Marsh

@ Stephen Marsh - hopefully this story might help..

- When I worked at Compose System, we had a design form that wanted to take their Adobe Illustrator PDF file designs and send them out for approval. These were Beer label designs. The customer would then share these designs with the carton manufacturer. The carton designer would open up the designs and modify them to make them 'work' on a carton. The label Designer could not fire the customer, but was pissed that their work would always show up on the cartons and they would never get any of the carton work. They solved this by sending un-editable CT/LW PDF files - they could not be scaled of "modified" like one could do with an illustrator file. The customer was forced to award the carton design work back to the label designer.

This is a true story, and one that should help anyone understand why some folks want a locked down file.

All the customer really needed was a way to see if the file would separate as required ( these labels had silver and white ink plates ) - yes, they were already trapped, but they really didn't want some hack tearing the designs apart so the customer could save money on the carton design.

Hope that helps.

 

[leonardr]

Leonard, If I didn't know any better I'd think that this means printing .ps from Acrobat and processing that. Sounds suspiciously close to refrying.

Nope, just meant printing directly to the device and skipping the RIP/DFI.

However, just an FYI - if you print a secured PDF to Postscript, you can't refry it! The Postscript can only be printed - it can't be redistilled.

 

[leonardr]

RIPping and trapping are editing.

RIPping is the process of creating a bitmap (raster) from the source format (PDF in this case). That is NOT EDITING. It's the same thing a viewer (such as Acrobat) does, just to a static image instead of a dynamic one on screen.

Trapping the actual file IS editing and WOULD fail on a file secured against editing. This is another reason why In-RIP Trapping is a good thing, since it doesn't actually modify the PDF and could be done on a file protected against editing.

 

[rich apollo]

RIPping is the process of creating a bitmap (raster) from the source format (PDF in this case). That is NOT EDITING. It's the same thing a viewer (such as Acrobat) does, just to a static image instead of a dynamic one on screen.

Must we always go through this? How about RIPping and trapping are forms of file modification, and therefore are generally subject to security restrictions placed on the file. Does that work?

In kaiserwilhelm's case, using TrueFlow, the PDF is converted into a proprietary format before the trapping occurs. On an Agfa front-end, the file is kept as PDF up until the file is rasterized and a secure file will still fail.

When you say "In-RIP Trapping" are you talking about the file being trapped after it's been rasterized?

 

[Dov Isaacs]

RIPing Locked PDF Files - Response from Adobe Print Group!

RIPing Locked PDF Files - Response from Adobe Print Group!

A few comments with regards to questions and comments made on this thread:

(1) Assume that you protect a PDF file with password security (not to open the PDF file, but to change its protections) allowing high resolution printing, but no other changes as copying, changing, etc. the document. In that case, RIPs and workflow systems built exclusively on Adobe PDF Print Engine technology should have no problem whatsoever opening and printing such protected PDF files. (We just tried this here at Adobe!)

(2) However, if the RIP / PDF workflow system provides options that either explicitly or implicitly modify the PDF file, if they use Adobe's PDF Library for this function, failure will occur for such protected files. One would expect this. The problem is that such RIP / PDF workflow systems may be performing functions that are implied that you are not aware of directly that in fact do require that the PDF file be opened for functionality beyond simple printing! This may be where any failures are occurring. Of course, if third party PDF libraries are used, all bets are off as to what happens and why.

(3) None of the PDF/X standards, including the latest PDF/X-4 and PDF/X-5 specifications allow for any PDF file protection. If you protect an existing PDF/X file, you invalidate its PDF/X tagging and any RIP operations may effectively ignore any PDF/X-specific features such as the output intent profile.

(4) Adobe obviously strongly advises against hackery and crimes against Gutenberg including text outlining, rasterizing text, etc. as a means of preventing well-meaning but often clueless prepress and print service provider personnel from applying fixes or changes to your files that in fact ruin them or change your intent as to what prints.

One would hope that you carefully select prepress and print service providers at least partly on the basis of trust and have a clear understanding with same that they are to apply no changes to press-ready PDF files without your explicit permission.

We can readily understand why one would want to protect a PDF file for internet transmission. May we suggest you ZIP compress the unprotected PDF/X and especially PDF/X file(s) and protect the ZIP file with a password. This obviously won't prevent someone from mucking with a file once it has been extracted with a password from its ZIP wrapper, but this technique does provide security for transmission.

FWIW, we (at Adobe) would be interested in knowing which if any Adobe PDF Print Engine-equipped systems have problems with protected for print only PDF files (ignoring the PDF/X issues above).

- Dov

 

[michaelejahn]

So, my take away is;

1. It is a bad idea to send PDF file with security settings into print production, as this might break your workflow ( which, to me, has ALWAYS made sense )

2. If you are sending files for "review only" and you need them to be "secure" and "not editable" - create a separate file for that purpose.

Great post Dov, and thanks Leonard for all your hard work on the PDF/X committees.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

FWIW, we (at Adobe) would be interested in knowing which if any Adobe PDF Print Engine-equipped systems have problems with protected for print only PDF files (ignoring the PDF/X issues above).

- Dov

Hi Dov, I sent you a PM.


Stephen Marsh