Advanced colour management in Prinect Workflow

[meddington]

Ok Chuck, Uncle! Must have been the shamwow comment. It was not my intention of belittling any Heidelberg tools or concepts by comparing them to a super-absorbent chamois. I was merely making light of Mark's post, which reads not unlike a "But Wait! There's More!" infomercial. A forum hard-liner might have asked that vender responses refrain from gratuitous self promotion that offers little content, but that's not me, and Mark has a history of relevant posts.

It was also not my intention to infer that Gray Balance Optimizer is in anyway inferior or more complex that other methods (simple and effective were the words I chose actually)...only that there can be significant work up front to derive high quality press profiles.

I find it interesting that some have commented that the Heidelberg Solution requires the wherewithall to do a press characterization in order to create a profile. Wow - now that is Sham Wowy! (or is it just a Sham) Of course it does!

I think some would definitely argue that a pressrun for determining 1 dimensional curves for plate compensation could be narrower in scope and less costly in time and materials than a pressrun (or pressruns) for deriving characterization data and press profiles, but I will allude to your point here...

Besides, the profile that you generate for creating a Near Neutral Curve is temporary and only used for creating the curve correction

...and agree that the purpose of the profile could (somewhat) alter my opinion on this. I would be fairly reluctant to utilize a profile derived from a 1000 sheet count "calibration" run for image conversion, device-link workflows and/or proofing than I would to more simply derive tonality and gray balance compensation via curves (with often only tonality adjustment necessary). Yes, pressing "Calculate" is easy...deriving accurate data for a holistic press profile often involves more.

(unless of course you are a genius and able to export the curve you create and imort it back into the profile thereby creating a calibrated profile and avoiding the necessity to print a verification run - possible with Heidelberg Tools)

This can be accomplished without a genius (or Heidelberg software) if one is properly motivated by budget restrictions and/or laziness.

Sorry about the somewhat sarcastic rant, but it gets old listening to the multitudes of Sham-Wipers that offer to solve all of your issues with some magical solution and in the same breath tell you that the most powerful solution available (which happens to be integral to the solutions that you have already invested in - but available to anyone) is either a knock off of a simple and inferior product, or more difficult than calculating the air speed velocity of an African Swallow flying into a 16.5mph headwind while flapping it's wings at 153.5689 beats per minute.

No one accused any product of being a knockoff in this thread, and the complexity of deriving holistic press data for profile creation is not directly related to any Heidelberg product. I think you're reading more into my comments than is there, but sorry if I hit a nerve. Regarding the African Swallow comment, my only retort is "NI"!

Best regards.

 

[Chuck Koehler]

Sham Wipers and other thoughts

Sham Wipers and other thoughts

Hi Mike (Eddington),

I just knew I was going to strike a nerve. Sorry - not my intention and there was nothing aimed at you at all - just wanted to entertain myself while writing my post.

That is the problem with these forums. While they are great for getting information, many people post and make comments and the good get mixed and muddled with the confusing. The original request by T-roy (posted on a Heidelberg Specific Thread) asked many things about calibrating to G7 and utilizing profiles for GCR and Ink Reduction with a Heidelberg Workflow.

As is very common, one of a plethora of G7 pundits (not you) chimed in to state in an authoritative voice that yes, the Heidelberg Solution is an option, BUT, that they hadn't had the opportunity to evaluate it. Who made them the authority anyway? And who has evaluated the IDEAlink Curve Software?

By the way, Heidelberg's Gray Balance Optimizer software is an "OFFICIAL G7 SUPPORT TOOL"

Many others also state in authoritative voices that G7 using profiles is "possibly not as accurate as the IDEAlink Curve Software (or graph paper)" (I am not referring to you at all here) and that the software has not been "evaluated" yet. It is really convenient that some are permitted license to state any conjecture as fact while others are condemned for touting real and quantifiable benefits of a product.

Yes our software requires a profile, but ANY solution that attempts to calibrate with Near Neutral, whether they utilize profiles or not, needs to start with accurate press characterization data. I would also argue that a good and proper two dimensional calibration done with simple dot gain curves is just as worthy of accurate press characterization as any other method.

And while you say that:

No one accused any product of being a knockoff in this thread, and the complexity of deriving holistic press data for profile creation is not directly related to any Heidelberg product.

There is this:

T-Roy: You have just heard from H'berg's Rapid Response Team that they are selling a G-7-like product, and of course this is an option. I have not had an opportunity to evaluate it. Bear in mind that the concept is well-known and can be implemented in various ways with various tools, from the simple and free to the complex and costly.

Which sounds a lot like someone infering that our Gray Balance Optimizer is a "G-7 Like" (knock-off) product while in the same breath stating that "the concept is well-known " (anyone can do it) and it can be implemented with "simple and free" solutions (they must not require accurate characterization)? or with "complex and costly" solutions. (now I wonder what solutions they were refering to here)?

I know (think) that you don't hear the consistent and incessant disinformation that comes from many a G7 expert, but we get it all the time. You wouldn't believe how many times a customer has told us that they were told by the guy implementing G7 that they can't accomplish G7 with this Heidelberg equipment or that.

There are some who would argue that G7 or Near Neutral procedures aren't necessary at all if things are done properly from the beginning, but the fact is that Near Neutral makes things easier in a lot of circumstances. Because of this Heidelberg has developed in my opinion, the easiest and most accurate Near Neutral (G7) Solution on the market which integrates seemlessly with our workflow. Other competing companies who don't have such a robust solution use the G7 efforts as a way to market and sell whatever it is that they offer, and at the same time they attempt to throw the Heidelberg Solution under the bus.

We are left in the unflattering position that we need to defend our solutions, for which we are accused of Marketing Hype and made out to be the bullies on the block.

Sorry again for creating any perception that I was reffering to your post other than borrowing the Sham Wow reference for some self amuzement.

Wow - way too late. Happy Fathers Day.

 

[meddington]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the clarification. No worries. I certainly don't want to perpetuate any false or misleading claims about any solutions out there without verifiable proof.

Many others also state in authoritative voices that G7 using profiles is "possibly not as accurate as the IDEAlink Curve Software (or graph paper)"

I 've heard that as well, usually coupled with the statement that the IT8.7/4 (or similar) target does not have near the number of CMY neutral patches along the gray axis as does the P2P25 target. This is of course true, but it has been my experience there has NOT been a loss of accuracy by utilizing profiles to determine gray balance compensation (this accomplished by other means than Heidelberg in my case) compared to official G7 methods. So yes, I would agree that this is could be a presumptuous statement.

Yes our software requires a profile, but ANY solution that attempts to calibrate with Near Neutral, whether they utilize profiles or not, needs to start with accurate press characterization data.

I can't disagree with that statement, and I would even venture to say that measurement data from any pressrun at any given time is fully accurate to the devices behavior at that particular moment...the numbers don't lie. However, the variation of output throughout the day, shift to shift, week to week, with any inherent temperature and humidity changes, and from "fresh" consumables to "worn in" consumables is not something that is typically taken into consideration in any one "calibration" press run performed on a non-regemented basis, but might be worth consideration with creation of a press profile.

And of course, not everyone out there actually owns profile creation software...in which case other solutions might be more doable without investing in software, but I don't think that's totally relevant in the original poster's case.

I would also argue that a good and proper two dimensional calibration done with simple dot gain curves is just as worthy of accurate press characterization as any other method.

If the goal is a stable platform in which to base future output or press characterization, then I have to agree totally. If the goal is to balance toward a particular defined densitometric tonality & gray balance based on a particular paper, than I disagree...BUT for the benefit of the original poster and our own sanity, we don't have to go down this road further ...unless you really want to.

Happy Fathers Day.

Likewise Chuck

 

[marktonk]

Well meddington,

I guess my point was to post a press release on sw that will do what T-Roy is looking for. The part I found interesting in the press release is several independent parties that have used it provide us their feedback. Hey I bet you know some of them. So if that sounds like Shamwow, so be it, after all, it is made in Germany and they make good products....

Happy Fathers Day to all,

Mark

 

[otherthoughts]

Sorry about the somewhat sarcastic rant, but it gets old listening to the multitudes of Sham-Wipers that offer to solve all of your issues with some magical solution and in the same breath tell you that the most powerful solution available (which happens to be integral to the solutions that you have already invested in - but available to anyone) is either a knock off of a simple and inferior product, or more difficult than calculating the air speed velocity of an African Swallow flying into a 16.5mph headwind while flapping it's wings at 153.5689 beats per minute.

Regarding the African Swallow comment, my only retort is "NI"!

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old Printers. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

Roger the Shrubber


​

Best - OT

 

[meddington]

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old Printers. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

Roger the Shrubber


​

Best - OT

Perhaps I should have said Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing Z'nourrwringmm.

Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a second time.

 

[otherthoughts]

Perhaps I should have said Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-Ekki-PTANG. Zoom-Boing Z'nourrwringmm.

Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a second time.

No No No...not that, I'll leave quietly....

Plan B

Well, now, uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I, wait until nightfall, and then leap out of the (Trojan)-Rabbit, taking the French by surprise

​

Taunt me will you?
Best, OT

 

[rbailleu]

classic, perhaps we should start a thread in the lounge on all things python.

bring out your dead.

 

[marktonk]

OK, "But Wait! There's More!"

I am not home or I would post a picture of my Monty bobble heads, the Black Knight and the Knights that go NI....but here is one for all you NI fans...be nice and I will tell you where you can get one (opps, would that be construed a commercial?)...bobble heads are gone and must be collector items by now..NI, NI, NI, shrubbery

 

[Chuck Koehler]

Perhaps we should change Python Movies? Life of Brian may be more appropriate to this theme:

Throng chasing Brian:

Look he's dropped his Sandal (Gray Balance) folow the Sandal! Look, he's dropped his Gourde (Device Link) follow the Gourde!

Oh Brian did you drop your Gray Balance as a sign? What does it mean oh great and marvellous mesiah?

Brian:

It isn't a sign, now please stop following me! You are all individuals, you all have a mind of your own.

Throng in unison:

yes, we are all individuals. Give us another sign messiah!

Brian:

I'm not the Mesiah - now *&$% Off!

 

[rbailleu]

I had no idea there were so many python geeks out there. and It is amazing how you can relate all things python to almost any situation. for instance I am sure you can relate the following to printing some how.

are you suggesting coconuts are migratery. no but a sparrow could carry it. it could not it could grasp it by the husk. it is not a matter of how it grips it. its a simple mater of wieght ratios. a 5 ounce sparrow can not carry a 2 lb coconut. .... well sure an african sparrow could, I thought you meant european.

 

[T-Roy]

Hi T-roy

I should have mentioned we are a sheetfeed shop =). But we do have a proofing setup for matte/uncoated stocks, works quite well.

I noticed you are in the Great White North like myself, but we are located in the centre of Canada though =P
If you plan on using Heidelberg to help you, I believe it would be the same local support people I use, the person they have on the color team is incredible, and definitely would be worth bringing in.

Good luck

Hi PrepressGuru,

Yes, I noticed that you are a fellow Canadian - it appears that we are well represented on these forums taking into account the population of our home and native land

And thanks, I am familiar with most of the people who work on the prepress support side in Canada and know whom you are referring to. I will request that he be the one to come out for the training and implementation.

Thanks again.

Regards,