Advice for HP Indigo Purchase

[mm52978]

Looking at an Indigo 5600. Had demo at HP and was blown away by quality of print. Brought my toughest jobs from my Konica C8000 and it was night and day in quality and consistency.

Here is the issue. I currently outsource a ton of offset work because of the reliability of the C8000 is terrible. Right now we are running a little of 60% uptime in a 40 hour work week. We are averaging 100,000 clicks a month, all 11x17 or bigger and mostly card stock. Registration is questionable, it has its moments. Color consistency stinks. I am constantly fighting today's color with tomorrows color. The machine was a great buy as it was a demo.

Looking for advice on a purchase of the Indigo. I can easily hit 250,000 clicks a month if the machine would do it. The problem i am having is justifying the cost. The machine just seems so expensive. The click and maintenance all seem great. Throw the lease payment in there, and it makes the cost per sheet really high.

Current 4/4 on Konica with lease i am running 13 x19 at about .13 no paper
If purchase Indigo with increase volume i am running at .17 no paper

That does not seem like a lot but when comparing jobs from the trade printer, i am only seeing small numbers as far as gaining profit. So i would be giving away .04 per click. Having in house capabilities is worth a lot, but .04 adds up quick when you start adding clicks in those quantities. I have done some comparison on the EPM cost, but the savings is not enough.

What is everyone's thought on Indigo reliability?
What are some of the negatives of the Indigo?
What is the biggest thing to help justify the additional cost?

Any and all feedback would be great.
Thanks
Mike

 

[ROCPrinter]

I've purchased two Indigo's, a 5000 in 2005 and a 5500 in 2007. We're also currently looking at a 7800. I wouldn't buy anything else! I know the lease is higher and the cost is up there but the reliability is second to none. The offset look to the sheet and the stability of the color is key as well. We have ours G7 calibrated and it's so stable we use it for proofs on offset jobs (on job stock). I've also used it to number sheets off of an offset press (100M sheets per months). I've put over 700,000 clicks on one unit in a month before. Running over 1 million clicks per month between the two units is normal. If you want your click charge to go down run more sheets. Mine are on a sliding scale, the more clicks the less the charge (and they combined the clicks between both presses.)

The support and marketing assistance you get from HP is phenomenal if you take advantage of it. HP wants you to put more clicks on it so they want to help you with your business plan, genius huh, lol.

I've been spoiled since 2005 and I wouldn't go any other way. If you want a reliable workhorse you have to pay. It's the difference between a Mercedes and a Kia. I was told a long time ago that printing consist of the 3-Q's; quickness, quality, and quoting. Well, the Indigo will provide you with quality, it's quick (and reliable) but the quote is higher. What would you rather do? Pay less but have the quality poor with a late job because the machine is down? That will cost you customers in the end. Your customers will pay for the extra half-a-penny; they won't even know.

Good luck!

 

[mm52978]

Just a few minor things....

When you say 700,000 clicks, is that HP impressions or clicks as in copier clicks. I know there is a huge difference so i want to make sure we are on same page. So in theory that is 175,000 sheets/Clicks of course there are 1 and 2 color jobs in there, just trying to get an idea.

Looking at this some more the last few days, i can calculate an additional 50-60k clicks/sheets easily that i send out instead of putting on my Konica. That in HP terms is another 240,000 plus my 80-100k clicks i do now which would bring me to a total of 700,000 or more hp click charges. Do you think that is a good start? I am thinking i can get it closer to a million billable on the HP.

As you know, i am looking for reliability. That is key to my business. We never say no to anything. No matter what the job is, we do what we have to in order to complete in time. With the Konica, we have been been second guessing ourselves and our expertise and can not count on reliability on Konica and therefor send it out, and then sit and wait with hopes the trade guy comes through. We not only waste time, but there is always the failure option when going outside. We also waste some profit. I can justify more jobs on the Konica, if the machine would produce them. I know the HP will produce them, i am just deciding if the extra cost is justifiable.

Thanks for advice, looking forward to the feedback

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

It sounds like you already know what the correct decision is, you just want someone to affirm your views. I highly suggest going to DSCOOP March 5-7 in DC. It's an HP owners and soon to be owners show that is essentially tailored for someone that is in your shoes. It's basically a giant HP networking trade show.

 

[mm52978]

That is somewhat true. I am sure there are plenty of people that were in or are in same the position looking for an upgrade. I have been told many times, that these big dollar machines, Indigo, Igen etc....need to run 2 shifts to pay for itself. That is my concern. Big dollar machines like this can destroy a company real quick and i am just looking for feedback on others experience. I am sold on the technology, the Rip, the Workflow, and the quality of the print.

About Dscoop. I was also told by a few people to attend this. I have heard a lot about it. I am looking into it right now
Thanks

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

That is somewhat true. I am sure there are plenty of people that were in or are in same the position looking for an upgrade. I have been told many times, that these big dollar machines, Indigo, Igen etc....need to run 2 shifts to pay for itself. That is my concern. Big dollar machines like this can destroy a company real quick and i am just looking for feedback on others experience. I am sold on the technology, the Rip, the Workflow, and the quality of the print.

About Dscoop. I was also told by a few people to attend this. I have heard a lot about it. I am looking into it right now
Thanks

Honestly, I am considering going because of some smaller HP equipment we want to purchase. I've heard it's a great conference/trade show. Just from going to the Graph Expo, we've met people close to us but outside of our market that have really helped us refine a few things in our business.

 

[ROCPrinter]

Yes, I agree, if you're really interested you should go to dScoop. I was in Orlando last year and it's a great place to discuss exactly what you're discussing here. Also, if you're seriously looking to attend tell your HP sales rep you want to attend and he can either get you in for nothing or get you a discount on your registration.

Regarding the clicks, I was talking about HP impressions. The way they calculate it is: 1/0 is 1 click; 4/0 is 4 clicks; 4/4 is 8 clicks etc. so if all we ran is 4/4 work 700,000 clicks would be 87,500 sheets of paper.

I do not agree that you need to run it two shifts to pay for itself. Of course the sooner you do the better you will be. We ran our 5000 one shift for the 1st 6 months or so after buying it. But, like I said in my original post; we started pulling our proofs on it for offset jobs. This saved us a ton of money by itself.

I would also look at your work and decide if you need a 4 color Indigo or a 6 color Indigo. There's a big price difference between the two. Our 5000 is a 6 color machine and then when we bought our 5500 we only purchase 4 colors. We never used the orange and purple because we did not want the extra click charges. We also never used white or the digimatte varnish so having six colors was a waste for us. We did buy an offline UV coater from Tec Lighting that has been great for us.

I would attend dScoop, discuss the machine with others and move on from there. I would bring your checkbook to dScoop though. I believe (off of the top of my head) we received a $30,000 "show discount" on our 5500 because we bought it at Graph Expo...

 

[mm52978]

I completely understand the additional colors. I am interested in the white, as i know i can use it. The spot colors, not so much. Not that many customers here want spot colors anymore. I definitely think i can get the clicks up there, as i know the work is here. The one thing i hate is that i really only need the 3550 with white. Which is the same machine as the 5600, but just cant get white on the 3550. I also would hate to get the 3550 and slap myself in the face without the white option. So torn....

I do want to thank you for the advice, as you already know its a big move no matter what. I like the advice from others in the same position, its very helpful.

Ill keep you posted if i pull the trigger or if anything else comes up

Thanks again
Mike

 

[RGPW17100]

The Violet and Orange are not considered spot colors. It is what HP calls indichrome. With violet and orange you get a much better color gamut and are able to get closer to a lot more PMS colors then you can with conventional 4 color. You can hit PMS 165 and you can get a lot closer to the reflex blue colors with the violet. It is a cool marketing tool but the click costs minimize the demand for it. Also beware that the max impression area on the 5600 is only17.7 inches by 12.25 inches. If you do 6 x9 postcards with bleeds you can only do 2 up.

 

[CSimpson]

Also beware that the max impression area on the 5600 is only17.7 inches by 12.25 inches. If you do 6 x9 postcards with bleeds you can only do 2 up.

3-up with a dutch cut. On my 3550 the max image is 12.68x17.7. You could still get 3-up if you set your bleeds to .0625 on 12.25.

 

[jinthebay]

One thing not mentioned here yet. Maintenance. I've been an Indigo operator for almost six years. It's been a love hate relationship. Yes, Indigo telephone support is great. However, onsite support, depending on where you are can be disappointing at times. And when you need them, you REALLY need them. As a "Shared Maintenance" operator, you are responsible for the care, cleaning and sometimes repair of the machine. Getting parts overnighted can be frustrating as HP wants to make sure it's a part that truly needs to be replaced.
Additionally, the operator has to be fairly reliable as it may not always be realistic to expect an untrained operator to cover for them due to an absence. And lastly, I'm hoping that someone here can clarify this for me. The 5600 is a series 2 press. My understanding was that these presses would no longer be supported after the end of this year. Primarily because the frontend software runs on Windows XP.
Find out as much as you can. Yes the quality is unquestionable. But is the support?

 

[mm52978]

Thanks for this....not sure on the support going forward. Hopefully someone will answer that for me.

As far as service, I am only 45 minutes from headquarters. So a little advantage there. Also, I have been told my local service rep, only lives 5 miles from my location. So a few good things on my side there. My main thing now is 5600 or 3550. I really have no customers asking for white, or infrared ink. So i am thinking a good start would be the 3550. Sell it till it runs 2 shifts, then in 3 years look at upgrading. The price difference between the 2 is huge, and i can justify that cost with no customer waiting for extra add ons.

Again, thanks for all your help
Mike