Agfa Azura

[Ritter]

After reading all of this thread I don't understand this beef about the plate checking. It seems like a very antiquated way of thinking. If you are proofing correctly (through the same RIP, and processes) and calibrated in proofing, then keeping sound maintenance on the plating equipment (to include cleaning, changing filters, etc.) as well as maintaining a plate room with constant stable temperature and humidity why in the hell would you bother checking the plates? Nothing should get to plating that hasn't already been checked, rechecked and signed off. It seems way too late in the game to me to be checking plates. If screening/image issues are to occur after all of this diligence you won't see them until the ink hits the paper.

Maybe I missed something here?

 

[Santa]

After reading all of this thread I don't understand this beef about the plate checking. It seems like a very antiquated way of thinking. If you are proofing correctly (through the same RIP, and processes) and calibrated in proofing, then keeping sound maintenance on the plating equipment (to include cleaning, changing filters, etc.) as well as maintaining a plate room with constant stable temperature and humidity why in the hell would you bother checking the plates? Nothing should get to plating that hasn't already been checked, rechecked and signed off. It seems way too late in the game to me to be checking plates. If screening/image issues are to occur after all of this diligence you won't see them until the ink hits the paper.

Maybe I missed something here?

Ritter,

I could not agree with you more.

It just seems to me that this is a discussion of "theory vs. actuality"

The "theory" is that without checking a plate you must be a fool and I quote Alois "So we have another " Fool" in the Pre Press, not checking the Plates, no wonder the Printers have problems on Press !!

The "actuality" is that checking plates in our shop running the Azura is unnecessary as we have not had any press related issues that Alois has so boldly assumed we have.

Alios please do me a favor and stay in your theory land and the rest of us who actually put ink on paper for a living (3rd generation printer here) will keep our feet firmly grounded in reality.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

.

The goal is not to measure, but to continue to produce consistent results! If we are reaching the goal, then is there a need to question the process? To reevaluate it at times is good, but measuring for the sake of measuring is like watching paint dry.)

Absolutely correct.

The goal of modern manufacturing is to have processes that have the capability of being inherently consistent and to avoid continuous inspection where ever possible.

It is very unfortunate that the traditions in the industry, which are perpetuated by the graphic technical organizations such as RIT, GATF, Fogra and Urgra, still think that targets are control devices and still encourage continuous inspection as a desired goal.

Targets tell you when the process is not in control. Targets are good as indicators but don't control anything. Control is a result of the capability of the design of the process. If a process required continuous monitoring, then it is not capable. If it can't be made capable, then it does need the monitoring but that is not a good thing.

The real goal is to have no need for targets. Targets waste paper. If the technical groups were more interested in process capability issues for the last 50 years than selling targets and its related expertize, one would have had consistent and predictable processes by now.

When I hear that a process is so consistent that it does not need close monitoring, that's great news.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Absolutely correct.

The goal of modern manufacturing is to have processes that have the capability of being inherently consistent and to avoid continuous inspection where ever possible.

...<snip>...

The real goal is to have no need for targets. Targets waste paper. If the technical groups were more interested in process capability issues for the last 50 years than selling targets and its related expertize, one would have had consistent and predictable processes by now.

When I hear that a process is so consistent that it does not need close monitoring, that's great news.

Erik - I agree 100% too, and I'm glad to see some support for that stance here. The discussion comes up regularly when discussing things like Thermal Direct, but it's a much wider issue - It's the basis for value in our core technologies like SQUAREspot. We're even leveraging that in the flexo world now to provide unheard-of consistency and quality with the Flexcel NX system (the GATF now sees the benefits for sure!).

While I accept fully that it would be nice to overcome the contrast limitations of Thermal Direct, in reality the reason it's become a concern is the historical variables throughout the platemaking process. Eliminate the variables, and you (theoretically) eliminate the need for inspection and the associated cost/overhead. That goes across everything from workflow, plates, imaging, and processing, to on-press performance through the end of the run. It's a big task, but that's our goal.

Kevin.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Savage:

<snip>
Reading through the forum, i see many people using the :Azura plate.
<snip>

There's also a study that reflects your observation. In a recent (March 2009) industry report,
nearly 80% of WW consumption of processless plates (of the Big 3) are Agfa plates.
(You can argue semantics - that's the category for Azura in this report.)

<snip>
May i ask to those who use it, if they ever considered the :Amigo plate, and why have you chosen the :Azura over the :Amigo?
<snip>

Savage - the core technology of the two plates are the same. However, Amigo was designed
to be more thoroughly cleaned-out prior to press, to enable baking. The application configuration
is also designed toward the higher-volume shops. I switched several shops last year to Amigo -
who claim their chemistry consumption has since dropped by about two thirds. With the faster
emulsion of the newer Azura TS - I'm finding larger shops interested in Azura TS.

Either way - similar technology, similar wide latitude - it's just finding the best fit for your needs.

Regards,

 

[beermonster]

hey steveagfa

i'm going onto the new TS when they schedule me in - is my gum quantity usage likely to change at all?

cheers steve - top man

 

[SteveAgfa]

Hi Beer...

The recommendation is to do the auto-rinse on the unit about every 300m2 of plate material -
which I believe is the same recommendation as before. You might find that we're laying down
a slightly thinner coating of gum. Let's see what your results are, and your thoughts on the switch.

Regards,

 

[Santa]

hey steveagfa

i'm going onto the new TS when they schedule me in - is my gum quantity usage likely to change at all?

cheers steve - top man

Beer my gum usage went from 1 jug per 4 weeks to 1 jug aprox every 6 weeks. But our plate usage is also down so I can't say for certain it was the TS.

One thing I will say, on the day of the switch we ran a poster for the NFL on the old Azura. The Agfa techs took about an hour to adjust the drum speed on my Ascento, we dropped in the new TS plates. Re-imaged the same poster on the them and strapped on them on at the end of the run and ran a few hundred extra sheets. No one in the shop could tell which piece was run on which plate. Did not have to adjust curves in pre-press, no fountain solution changes on press, and no change in the S.O.P for the way we print.

That was last July and we are still going strong!

 

[Baldbug]

Can anyone give me their opinion on the Agfa Azura plate. We are currently using the Fuji LHPI and are thinking of switching.

We just installed a Acento II S using the new Azura TS plates. Its only early days yet with a small teething issue with the Acento and some plate issues with wear which is being sorted out. Different plate wear on a two colour MO and plate wear on an old KORD press. No wear issues on GTO46 and GTO52 multiple presses and a 2 colour SORK yet.

 

[beermonster]

TS is being installed as i type.

thanks again santa and steveagfa

just as a side issue - run length...these are unbaked azura plates - we print on some harsh boards which leave plenty of debris

we are running a 500k run right now - 5 colour - B1 full sheet on some not overly friendly pulp type of board - NOT what i'd call ordinary conditions

black on 2nd cylinder seems to be - for whatever reason - getting the most hard work and is lasting about 65k impressions - but the others - well they finally gave up at 179k - yes that's 179k.

the process elements are not overly large in fairness - probably cover 40% of sheet with the rest being a full out solid - nonetheless - that's an impressive run length - getting on for twice the rated run

just thought i'd throw that in there…………

 

[beermonster]

oh - checking plates....well only last week i missed a 4 colour barcode - spotted it whilst CHECKING the cyan plate - stopped process, fixed and all in all wasted just 2 plates but the job hit press in good time

 

[HockeyJewel]

We changed over a Presstek Dimension 400 to the Azura TS plates -The pressman love the plate (we have two Dimension 400s, one burning Azura TS plates, one burning Prestek Anthem) BUT, I have trouble EACH day with channel zones drifting on the machine burning Azura TS- any one have the same issue? (I am pulling my hair out, is it the machine or the plates?)

 

[Santa]

Could never say for sure without seeing your plate, But if it is vertical and each one is about an inch wide than from my experience it is a zone balancing issue. Zone balancing is inherent to the Dimension platesetter, the Agfa Ascento we run does not require such calibration. The need for constant zone balancing is why we de-installed our Dimension oh so many years ago.

 

[Prepper]

80% of Market

80% of Market

"There's also a study that reflects your observation. In a recent (March 2009) industry report,
nearly 80% of WW consumption of processless plates (of the Big 3) are Agfa plates.
(You can argue semantics - that's the category for Azura in this report.)"

Steve, in regards to the quote above from an earlier post you made to this thread, I was told that Agfa's install WW on Azura was 300 with about 150 of those in the US. Could that have been just the TS plate, or all Azura installs? 80% of what size market I guess is what I'm asking. The number above would seem to make it a very small market so I must have misunderstood something?

Thanks

 

[SteveAgfa]

Hi Prepper:

Regarding Azura install count:

I couldn't find the quote or the context you mentioned. I suspect that it was either a quote from several years ago, or perhaps it was referring to our then recent switch-over to Azura TS.

Regardless, Azura users now number in the thousands. Once a product hits such a critical mass, we tend to only internally measure in m2, or specific Clean-Out-Unit installs.

A year ago, we started the promotion recognizing Azura's five-year anniversary. Then we were mentioning over 2,500 ThermoFuse users. http://www.agfa.com/en/gs/news_events/golden_plate/index.jsp

We find that our happy Azura users (such as on this forum) are our best form of advertising.

That's what we can all count on!

Regards,

 

[Printservedigital]

The Azurra is a good plate I saw it in Mortsel in 2004

 

[Prepper]

80% of Market

80% of Market

Hi Steve,

The quote was from a post on page 3 of this thread. I have heard very few negatives on the Azura and we're currently working on getting to try these plates out. In speaking with someone from Agfa they mentioned the same thing, that Agfa had 79% of this market but said that was 300 installs world-wide and about 150 in the U.S., started me thinking this must be a really small market and maybe not a tried and true method yet (process-less plates), and please don't go into the terminology again, especially since all the problems we've experienced with our current plates.

But surely the numbers have to be more than that right? Do you have any industry info or estimates on how many people are currently using this technology in the U.S.?

When we start asking we can't find anyone in our area that is using them or the Fuji offering either for that matter, so it does make me wonder how large or small a group are we talking about?

Thanks

 

[rotarypower3]

getting the most hard work and is lasting about 65k impressions - but the others - well they finally gave up at 179k - yes that's 179k.

I'd love to know the secret of getting such long run lengths.
We're lucky to 13-15k out of ours. We have one job that comes in 4 times a year that's 120k, and I have to send out for Kodak plates.
The plates have been used on 4 different presses here with the same short run lengths before they wear out and I have to run more.

..

 

[Printservedigital]

Only a few years ago we used Agfa plates and run them at 60K per hour and they would run from 9:30pm to 4:30am the next morning with only press stops of 10-15 mins for 3 or 4 edition changes.

The Azura plate it still short of that though.

13K impressions nowadays? we would have sent the whole pallet/batch (if it was multiple pallets) back , obviously there is something wrong!

 

[SteveAgfa]

A couple things...

RotaryPower -
Something doesn't sound right.
I'm not tech support, but the first thing that comes to mind is that the drum speed or power setting isn't right. With Azura, the plate can read correctly, but might not be thoroughly fused. I've also seen a case where the focus setting wasn't correct, even though drum and power settings are by the book. Or, perhaps you are using a fountain solution that is not optimal. Please make sure your local Agfa plate technical resource is involved.

Prepper -
Please PM me your contact info, and I'll get you local references. I can't talk about install numbers or market share figures beyond published information. I'd bet however, that there are some users nearby.

Regards,