Alcohol free fountain solution & IPA limits

[Lukew]

Always wondered what are the reasons for having an IPA % limit with most alcohol free/reduced fountain solutions.
Usually it will say run IPA between 0 % - 5%. Do not exceed 5% IPA

Interested to know the reasons behind this.

Regards..

 

[Lukew]

No chemical supplies have an answer to this?

 

[mazengh]

i remember the Belgian Saphira rep that came to my press house mentioned this also... but wouldn't explain why.

 

[D Ink Man]

I remember trying to get milk from a bull and could not. I looked at him and pondered, but the bull wouldn't explain why.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

IPA or that much nicer drink "India Pale Ale"

IPA or that much nicer drink "India Pale Ale"

Lukew,

You shouldn't need to ask why there are limits on IPA addition to F.S - just think about it !!

and I don't mean India Pale Ale.



Regards, Alois

 

[Lukew]

Yes I need to ask why there is a set limit of max 5% IPA with fountain solutions that are designed for reduced IPA/ IPA free printing.

There could be several reasons:
- The fountain solution doesn't get to work effectively and as it's designed if there is too much IPA
- The IPA free fountain solutions have a high solvent content already and running anymore then 5% IPA would attack the ink too much.

I know that when I accidently dosed to much IPA with a fountain solution that said max 5% IPA we noticed a lot for circumferential banding/ridging on the metering roller

 

[Dan Roll]

Pale Ale is OK, but living in America I seriously miss me some Victoria Bitter.......

 

[Lukew]

Pale Ale is OK, but living in America I seriously miss me some Victoria Bitter.......

Victoria bitter, yuck yuck yuck, cheap nasty mega swill.....

Little creatures bright ale or Matilda bay Fat yak

Dan, your not going to give a reason why there is a set limit ?

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Theakstons Old Peculier or Taking the Waters !

Theakstons Old Peculier or Taking the Waters !

Lukew,



I suggest you read the PDFs I posted on F.S Concentrates, Thread: Smoothers Solids/ Page 2

The link http://printplanet.com/forums/sheetfed-web-offset-discussion/29172-smoother-solids-versus-mottled-solids


Dan, If and when you visit the UK - do try Theakstons Old Peculier


Regards, Alois

 

[Lukew]

Alois, yep thanks I have read through the PDF's you posted.

I've done some looking through MSDS sheets and the fountain solutions that are suited to run at 8%+ IPA don't contain many glycols.

 

[Dan Roll]

Lukew,

I do not have any idea why some manufacturers put a IPA limit on the labels of their fountain solutions. My guess is they have little confidence their product will work without IPA and they are subtly suggesting alcohol be used with their product. At most companies the labels and promotional materials are not written by the same group of people who develop the products, so there is no reason to take most of this verbiage with more than a grain of salt. Another possible explanation could be marketers do not want to frighten off potential customers who have reservations about running without IPA.

The inverse of your question is why do suppliers not put upper limits on IPA. If solvents are bad for the printing process you would think this would be easily demonstrated with alcohol use. The first continuous dampening press I ran (a 36" single color Harris) had been set up by the installer with Rosos fountain solution and 25% IPA. The pressman who ran the press on the shift before mine would routinely boost his alcohol content in the belief it was always evaporating and my hydrometer would sometimes sink to the bottom of the tank when I checked IPA content at the begining of the day. He didn't seem to get any less done per shift that I did, and no one ever commented that my work was better/worse than his, though I consumed a lot less IPA in the course of a shift.

I take it you are not a Victorian, not thinking highly of VB.

 

[Lukew]

I drink the VB on tap as its available at every venue, but in a bottle it is foul!!

I think you miss interpreted my post, I stated that a lot of the alcohol free or reduced founts DO set an upper limit for IPA

For instance they say do not exceed more then 5% IPA

 

[Dan Roll]

Lukew,

No, I think I understood your question and replied to it specifically.

 

[Lukew]

Lukew,

No, I think I understood your question and replied to it specifically.

Ahhh sorry for that, early morning pre coffee confusion... A slap to the back of the head for myself..
Maybe you might have some answers to the "A little test" thread. possibly I wasted my time and it means nothing.

 

[Coastline]

Both excessive fount and/or IPA can cause attacking of the ink.
As Dan said, an alcohol free fount mentioning IPA dosages obviously doesn't show that there is much confidence in it working without IPA.
I wouldn't be very confident in a fount that was labelled as IPA free/IPA reduction/use up to ?% IPA

Having said that, sometimes a printer feels more comfortable when moving to IPA free printing, knowing that they have the option of adding some IPA if they want, even if it isn't actually necessary; as otherwise they may have the impression that it's all or nothing, which it isn't.
I don't think that this needs to be reflected on the label though, simply telling the printer would suffice in this case.

 

[mjlake]

There are so many factors to condor when regarding solutions that it's near impossible to pin it down on a single forum post. Some solutions run a much higher concentration than others and it varies depending on the company and environment.

That said, not a fan of IPA. I'm more of a porter/stout guy.

 

[Lukew]

Both excessive fount and/or IPA can cause attacking of the ink.
.

Anther that agrees to this, Good to see that there are some suppliers out there that agree to this.
Dan is of the opposite believe, and states that the solvents in the fountain solutions won't attack the ink.

 

[D Ink Man]

But it don't change ink mileage, and never forget dat.

 

[DIC Australia]

The term "alcohol free fount" is a little like "100% vegetable based ink", they both are incomplete descriptions.

Founts designed to run with no IPA will often contain different alcohols, often with greatly reduced volatility, therefore by using such a fount, and continuing to add IPA to it in large %ages, you will end up with a massively aggressive fountain soution....never a good thing!!

Some founts are designed to run with "reduced" IPA, at levels of say 1-5%, thus providing the print benefits of IPA with a reduced level of VOC. Again, such a fount could have an alcohol/glycol present and the IPA level must be restricted.

Its a bit like taking painkillers...its ok to have Nurofen, Codral and Lemsip at the same time....but you must give thought to the fact that you are accumulating your dose of paracetamol, or else you will have no headache, a clear nose and soothed throat as they wheel you into the hospital

....and as for the VB, Bundy is the best alcohol!!

 

[Lukew]

The term "alcohol free fount" is a little like "100% vegetable based ink", they both are incomplete descriptions.

Founts designed to run with no IPA will often contain different alcohols, often with greatly reduced volatility, therefore by using such a fount, and continuing to add IPA to it in large %ages, you will end up with a massively aggressive fountain soution....never a good thing!!

Some founts are designed to run with "reduced" IPA, at levels of say 1-5%, thus providing the print benefits of IPA with a reduced level of VOC. Again, such a fount could have an alcohol/glycol present and the IPA level must be restricted.

Its a bit like taking painkillers...its ok to have Nurofen, Codral and Lemsip at the same time....but you must give thought to the fact that you are accumulating your dose of paracetamol, or else you will have no headache, a clear nose and soothed throat as they wheel you into the hospital

....and as for the VB, Bundy is the best alcohol!!

Thankyou for your reply! Another industry representitive that believes fountain solution can be aggressive towards ink.
Do you beleive that alcohol or its replacements can have any effect on ink mileage?