Any advantage to a .PS workflow?

[Gregg]

One of our component printers has not yet gone to a PDF workflow. Instead, we still supply native files and they only create PDFs, post-rip, if needed by the customer.

Always been curious why they have not switched over. Anyone here still working in this manner. Any advantages to it?

 

[prep]

Complete Control

Complete Control

In two words:
Complete Control
Since most designers are incredibly lazy and also lacking in any understanding of how printing works we like to have complete control over every aspect of the job. As we don't have any PDF editors (believe it or not we are using Backstage Edit version 3, and I think Esko is up to version 8 at least.) we cannot make changes to a client's PDF file. We have printed a job which was supplied as PDFs for Harley Davidson and the files were perfect. But that level of professionalism is terribly rare in the design world.

 

[JaZZedUp]

Plenty of Advantages to .PS workflow

Plenty of Advantages to .PS workflow

PDF files are difficult (and sometimes impossible) to edit.

Production facilities usually have to fix issues that are imposed by the press layout that the designer had no idea of when he/she created the file. Sometimes this is adding bleed, combining or converting spot colors or last minute type changes.

Having a PDF as the source puts undue restraints on the job.

Recently, I received a PDF in 4-colors that was supposed to be printed with 1 ink. I guess that the designer just didn't get the memo.

 

[Jose Gonzales]

Having a PDF as the source puts undue restraints on the job.

For PDF editing I'm working with Neo... It's just a great tool for all those who might need to edit PDF's. I think there is even a 30 day trial version available on esko's website.
Check this page Neo - EskoArtwork

 

[John Clifford]

There are great advantages to PDF. First, from the file supplier's standpoint, I don't have to worry about if the printer/prepress has the same versions of the software, OS, extensions, fonts, etc. that I have. I also don't have to supply fonts or images. As a composition/prepress person I've seen myriad problems surrounding what I call "environmental variables" that are not an issue with normalized PDFs.

Also, since you mention .PS, Adobe is no longer developing Postscript. Even EPS is no longer being developed. Both are basically DEAD. Everything has now gone to PDF/XML as the underlying format (this is true for Illustrator, Photoshop, and InDesign, as well as other Adobe products). PDF is something we need to learn to deal with in a very real way.

If a PDF is created using a standard (like ISO PDF/X) then the problems should be minimized. However, some problems from designers will still exist, such as no bleed. So how do you handle an ad, which is supplied as a full page jpeg image that hasn't been placed as a bleed? Do you enlarge the image (I've had some where the text in the ad/image was so close to the edge that enlarging was out of the question and we had to go into Photoshop and clone bleed)? Should you be doing this? If you do it, do you properly charge the client? Designers learn really fast about ensuring that they create files correctly when it comes out of their pocket.

As for the 4-color for 1-color situation, any PDF workflow allows you to convert colors, alias colors, etc. I know that I've had clients who supply jobs with 14 spot colors to be printed as process and it's a simple selection in the RIP to convert spot or RGB colors to CMYK. Just make sure that you charge for it as if it did take you more time than that so that next time the designer knows to submit it properly.

On the issue of editing client's work. I know that printers think that designers are stupid and that it is your duty to correct their files. However, if I make a mistake and something needs to be fixed, I'd rather that I do it. That ensures that my file is the accurate one. There is nothing so irritating as to go back and reprint a file (perhaps with a different printer) only to suddenly have an error that wasn't in the original printed piece.

 

[[email protected]]

Lines Per Inch

Lines Per Inch

Lines Per Inch is what does it for me. Your average PDF gives you 150 lines per inch using 2400 dots per inch and a halftone cell of 16 dots.

This is great (not to be knocked), but it can be greater; especially if your printer is capable of outputting plates at 4800 dots per inch using the standard halftone cell of 16 dots gets you 300 lines per inch.

Yes it is still only going to give you 256 shades of grey from that 16 dot halftone cell, but now you can cram them into a smaller space i.e. give far greater detail. Detail that looks so super smooth you want to touch the object in the photograph - not just look at it.

O.K. so only the higher end clients are going to appreciate spending the extra money, but isn't that who you are after?

 

[Tech]

I'm in the same shoes as Gregg, we both are in book publishing. The difference is that our printers are fully PDF workflow but ourselves are not. We still sent out live files because of insecurities regarding color accuracy on reproduction. I'm tired of explaining this or trying to convince higher ups--they do not care if printer is PDF workflow, they claim we are not ready for it and that's the end of discussion. In other words, "I don't understand it nor do I want to spend time learning it".

In regards to John's comment, designers may not be stupid, but certainly, most are guilty of being poorly educated in how things are produced. There is no need to sugar coat it. Not too long ago, we have the pleasure to reprint a title with 100ppi LRZ Word images (come to think of it they might have been screenshots!), all embedded within a PDF file. I have no idea how this "press-ready" file was printed before without anyone noticing the poor quality. Despite mine analysis of the file, editor still purchased the file for us to print. In short, If people do not try to educate themselves continuous after they got a job, there lies the problem.

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread Gregg

 

[margadri]

Lines Per Inch is what does it for me. Your average PDF gives you 150 lines per inch using 2400 dots per inch and a halftone cell of 16 dots.

This is great (not to be knocked), but it can be greater; especially if your printer is capable of outputting plates at 4800 dots per inch using the standard halftone cell of 16 dots gets you 300 lines per inch.

Yes it is still only going to give you 256 shades of grey from that 16 dot halftone cell, but now you can cram them into a smaller space i.e. give far greater detail. Detail that looks so super smooth you want to touch the object in the photograph - not just look at it.

O.K. so only the higher end clients are going to appreciate spending the extra money, but isn't that who you are after?

Please explain?
You get as much resolution as your rip gives you with Pdf line work!
Isn't it?

 

[leonardr]

Lines Per Inch is what does it for me. Your average PDF gives you 150 lines per inch using 2400 dots per inch and a halftone cell of 16 dots.

Your average PDF doesn't do ANYTHING with lpi or halftoning...Those concepts are device DEPENDANT and therefore not found in a "Portable Document". Any determination of such things would is ONLY done at the time you actually print the document.

Perhaps your RIP is misconfigured?!?!

 

[John Clifford]

Tech,

ANYONE can make a bad PDF or a bad application file. In the example you quoted, an application file wouldn't have helped at all. What PDF DOES do is that it normalizes the file. So even though it has bad images it will still print (I know, I know, you don't want the bad images, but you ended up with them???).

We, as professionals, should help designers to understand these issues. I'm currently teaching young graphic design students at Fashion Institute of Technology in Los Angeles the how and whys of creating standard (PDF/X) PDFs with appropriate bleed, colors (process or spot), and how to designate die cuts and embosses. I'm still amazed that the majority of design schools don't even bother to teach any of this. With us now using computers for everything, a lot of the young designers don't even know that there are colors that they'll never see on their monitors, but that they can use in their designs. As a result, we'll see less of metallics and "out of gamut" spot colors. And forget about them understanding varnishes and other finishes.

At least the handful in my classes have been exposed to such things and know how to create them so they'll print (hopefully).

 

[Tech]

Tech,

ANYONE can make a bad PDF or a bad application file. In the example you quoted, an application file wouldn't have helped at all. What PDF DOES do is that it normalizes the file. So even though it has bad images it will still print (I know, I know, you don't want the bad images, but you ended up with them???).

We, as professionals, should help designers to understand these issues. I'm currently teaching young graphic design students at Fashion Institute of Technology in Los Angeles the how and whys of creating standard (PDF/X) PDFs with appropriate bleed, colors (process or spot), and how to designate die cuts and embosses. I'm still amazed that the majority of design schools don't even bother to teach any of this. With us now using computers for everything, a lot of the young designers don't even know that there are colors that they'll never see on their monitors, but that they can use in their designs. As a result, we'll see less of metallics and "out of gamut" spot colors. And forget about them understanding varnishes and other finishes.

At least the handful in my classes have been exposed to such things and know how to create them so they'll print (hopefully).

I completely agree, I don't want to be an arse about it but also don't want to sugar-coat anything. We recently had a summer intern, she is a very nice person and is willing to learn, but for a graduating senior, her knowledge about the publishing field she wants to get a job in isn't enough. She'll have hard time competing for even entry-level position especially during these trying times.

Frankly, whenever I find errors or potentially troublesome setup in layouts, I'll fix the issues or try to explain/demonstrate to our designers on avoiding the same mistake. I'm happy to share my knowledge and be helpful, but ultimately, they still need to spend the time to learn new things just as I have. The general feedback I get is "great, thanks for fixing", they move on to next project and I will see the same mistake a few projects later. This is not careless mistakes, this is "great, we have someone in-house to catch and fix my mistakes".

Our design schools are out of touch with the real world despite how much they advertise about their state-of-the-art facilities. They teach design but neglects teaching the actual process of production. Design schools need to focus on finding qualifying instructors like yourself, to help spread the knowledge regarding evolving technology and how it's morphing publishing/production.

 

[John Clifford]

Our design schools are out of touch with the real world despite how much they advertise about their state-of-the-art facilities. They teach design but neglects teaching the actual process of production. Design schools need to focus on finding qualifying instructors like yourself, to help spread the knowledge regarding evolving technology and how it's morphing publishing/production.

I absolutely, completely agree. Part of the problem is that things are changing constantly and most instructors, even many of those who still do work in the industry, just don't keep up. They're not likely to be on this forum and they probably don't read the more technical publications.

When I started teaching at FIDM 4 years ago, I was the first instructor to talk about PDF/X. We didn't have APPE but it was on the horizon, so discussions of transparency started as "this is the way we do it today, but tomorrow will probably be something like this." We've gone in that short time from EPS being the preferred format for prepress to "let's all use native format files in InDesign."

The best I can hope for from my students is that they can at least hold their own at entry level and that they've been prepped to continue to learn. We actually have a prepress class, but it's only one class over 9-11 weeks and I've got to cover everything from how to put in crop marks, bleed, etc. to the difference between process and spot colors, as well as bindery/finishing and just how ink goes down on paper. I get them in their last year and at that point they think that you get gray by "adding white ink." So it IS a challenge. I'm just happy that someone asked me to take it because I don't see a lot of us stepping up to the plate to teach those who come behind.

 

[Tech]

I'm in NYC. There's a four major design schools in NYC (I'm sure I'm forgetting one right now)...Parson, SVA, Cooper Union, and FIT being the most affordable for most students. How's this for being out of touch, a four year degree and they only offer one classes in learning how to integrate design applications and one in prepress and a few other classes in indesign/illustrator/photoshop.

http://www.fitnyc.edu/aspx/Content....:CommunicationDesign:CourseDescriptions#CD322


Semester#6
CD 322 – Design Process Technology
2 credits; 1 Lecture and 2 COMPUTER LABORATORY hours per week
Prerequisite: GD 243
Students integrate QuarkXPress, Adobe Illustrator, and Adobe Photoshop programs to enhance conceptual thinking and master practical applications.

Semester#8
DD 231 Color Production Techniques for Digital Prepress
2 credits $284.00 (non-NY State: $854.00)
Prerequisite: CD 322
Students learn how to prepare digital files to simplify the complexities of prepress and ensure quality of final output. The relationship between creative vision, what is seen on the screen, and the realities of the printed piece is explored.


Frankly, I doubt other school three schools mention above offer better curriculum and that's the scary part. I understand they teach design as the selling point, but neglecting on teaching their students on how to produce a product makes their programs a failure. They graduate design students whom aren't skills enough beyond printing to color ink-jet printers.

I actually have been thinking about teaching lately...will keep an eye out for it if opportunity allows me to teach night classes. Before that though, I think I need to get certified for teaching instructor.

------------

Here's Parson's 4-yr curriculum for Communication Design
http://www.parsons.newschool.edu/departments/curriculum_95.aspx?pType=1&dID=72&sdID=95

I see no practical classes here that teaches anything about prepress and production.

 

[PantherMac]

Recently, I received a PDF in 4-colors that was supposed to be printed with 1 ink. I guess that the designer just didn't get the memo.

LOL! That's once a week, at least! I like the 2-color jobs the best...

"But I only see Green and Black on my proof?"

Sigh.....

.. I have had to remind employee's many times over the years, and myself as well recently too, but if it all worked as advertised, they wouldn't need us. "Prepress" would be a server in a rack, not a room filled w/ workstations and employee's.



Keep those PDF's coming, we're looking to buy a house this summer! LOL!

- Mac

 

[jameslwilson]

To speak to the original question, the only reason we maintain postscript files in our workflow is to allow tray calls for jobs being produced on the DocuColor 8000's. Once the file is distilled, that tray info is lost.

 

[Todd Bernhard]

You should consider a genuine Adobe PDF Print Driver, where you as the Printshop get to decide what print settings (color, resolution, font embedding, etc.) are 'locked in'.

The end user simply presses 'File -> Print -> YourPrintCenterNameHere'. They use their app (Quark, InDesign, YeOldeWindowsBizCardMaker) so you don't have to worry about that, and their fonts, on their Mac or PC.

Not only that, the PDF file is approved by them on-screen and they hit 'Accept' and the file is instantly transferred to your server, without FTP or email hassles. They can ticket the job and place the order instantly.

The print driver is locked in to your print center, so they can't just take the PDF to Kinko's!

Look for a print driver based on Adobe PDF JobReady.

MARKETING ALERT! Full disclosure, RSA's SurePDF Print Driver, part of the WebCRD web-to-print solution, is just such a print driver. There's a free Adobe White Paper here (http://www.rocsoft.com/pdf/wp_AdobePDFConversion.pdf) - note JobReady used to be called PDF Transit. More info on WebCRD here Web-to-Print that's More Than a Storefront with WebCRD from Rochester Software Associates, Inc.

 

[PantherMac]

Our design schools are out of touch with the real world despite how much they advertise about their state-of-the-art facilities. They teach design but neglects teaching the actual process of production. Design schools need to focus on finding qualifying instructors like yourself, to help spread the knowledge regarding evolving technology and how it's morphing publishing/production.

I agree with the first part of the statement. I regularly meet soon-to-be-grad's from RIT, one of the most prestigious "Print" schools in the US... and they don't know shit, truly.

But I've known (personally) several of the people on staff at that school, and know their industry background, and have very frankly asked them about this. Their take is kind of interesting. The artistic designers, they argue, aren't there to learn 'print production'.. Likewise, I've spoken to designers, who very frankly have said - Printing it's your problem, I'm not being paid by the client to worry about that.

... Yes, I respectfully disagreed, but w/o getting into that argument, I understand this designers' viewpoint. Mind you... this guy was in charge of design for a very large national company who's products I can guarantee we all have in our home right now.... I think to a degree, he was using his weight....

But he's right.

As the "Designer", printability isn't his concern. Granted, he can't make a design that's impossible to print, but.. HOW the 'purty picture gets onto the paper, ain't his problem, that's mine. Likewise, as printer's, we (shouldn't) don't critique our customer's designs, not matter how gregarious... We just repeat them across the sheet as affordably as possible.

If it's a pile of Garbage and they want me to make it smell like Roses... that's when I have to remind myself that I'm earning my salary today. LOL!

- Mac

 

[John W]

Folding carton jobs

Folding carton jobs

With folding carton work, files may arrive from just about anywhere. In most cases (90%), the build of the carton is incorrect for the various production set ups out there. This means that each and every panel of the carton must be adjusted. On top of that, designers have no clue about wrap (the face panel images must go outside the folds more and more as the caliper of the cardboard increases. During diecutting, the job may have dead cuts, it may have no dead cuts and more than half the time, nesting is required. Since pdf files are basic rectangles with the unwanted area white, nesting cannot be performed without masking. Software such as Pandora can make mask templates but here's the kicker. Native files can be imposed without the masking in extremely short times (2 minutes for a 12 up nested carton!). If combination print is employed, then each die is a different layout so template building is a total waste of time!
Now let me talk about trap. We often trap in unusual manner especially when dealing with spot colors and metallics. No auto trap program out there can trap the way we do. As an example, take a paint can cmyk thin silver rim (with the paint can placed on a fifth spot color). Auto trappers and even most manual trappers will choke the fifth color into the paint can thus destroying at least some of the thin silver rim from showing as silver. We go the other way, outwards to trap so the thin silver rim is protected visually. This technique also prevents that horrible square off where two curves meet and the fifth color comes in and ruins the delicate meeting of the curves with a chunky square off trap element (such as two round overlapping cookies on a fifth spot color).
I'm not saying that pdf and auto trappers don't work for jobs, just not all types of work so native and ps workflow is still of vital importance and usefulness and will be until a full native pdf editor (Pitstop Extreme is approaching it) is viable and IMHO, the pdf format prevents that very thing.

John W

 

[rmstorm]

PS workflow is much faster, more productive compared to PDF workflow.

 

[michaelejahn]

To speak to the original question, the only reason we maintain postscript files in our workflow is to allow tray calls for jobs being produced on the DocuColor 8000's. Once the file is distilled, that tray info is lost.

Hi James,

Nearly all the vendors now support JDF. I have personally been involved with developing an application that enables the user to add tabs to an existing PDF. As you might imagine, this sometimes requires a tray pull (in the case where we are inserting a store bought tab into a PDF at print, inline) or adding inserting new pages that might be a different color paper (this sometimes requires adding pages to the PDF if you are going to print words on the tab) and of course, if the designer already created tabs in the PDF, adding tray pull instructions (for example, to switch to a card stock)

Doing this using PostScript is old school, tried and true of course, but honestly, using a 'platform dependent" and "no longer supported" programing language from Adobe - PostScript - makes no sense to me - PDF and JDF are the method that modern developers use to create robust solutions.

PostScript may still be popular and even be used successfully by many people, but it is dead man walking to me, and would never ever propose - for ANY reason - PostScript in a workflow of any sort for any solution.

But, hey, that just me I guess.