Anyone using Pantone Extended Gamut?

[gordo]

Anyone using Pantone Extended Gamut in their Esko workflow?

I asked a similar question before but only got Pantone's listing of users which was...err...misleading(?) https://printplanet.com/forum/prepr...tended-gamut-coated-guide?p=258665#post258665

So, have you tried it?

You can PM me (at pritchardgordon (at) gmail (dot) com )if you don't want to be public with your response. Thanks!

 

[Mikie]

We tried it, but the software isn't smart enough to know when it can match the color closer with just process colors and always uses the extra colors, even when it gets closer when you turn it off. We have ran a 20,000 for awhile now, and I have yet to not match a PMS color with just process colors. I am sure there are ones that could benefit from the extra colors, I just haven't come across one yet. I felt it was a waste of ink to use the 3 extra colors for every job with Pantone colors, if it wasn't going to improve what I can get with process.

Just for reference I am using an Indigo 20,000 and the front end is "HP Smartstream Labels and Packaging Print server, Powered by Esko". I assume it would be comparable to a stand alone Esko system.

 

[gordo]

We tried it, but the software isn't smart enough to know when it can match the color closer with just process colors and always uses the extra colors, even when it gets closer when you turn it off. We have ran a 20,000 for awhile now, and I have yet to not match a PMS color with just process colors. I am sure there are ones that could benefit from the extra colors, I just haven't come across one yet. I felt it was a waste of ink to use the 3 extra colors for every job with Pantone colors, if it wasn't going to improve what I can get with process.

Just for reference I am using an Indigo 20,000 and the front end is "HP Smartstream Labels and Packaging Print server, Powered by Esko". I assume it would be comparable to a stand alone Esko system.

My understanding is that you could manually edit the EG recipes if you wished. Did you try that? Where/how do you edit the recipes?

 

[Mikie]

Yes you can edit the mixes and we did try that. Problem being we aren't very versed in color correcting using orange, violet and green lol. Our system (I assume all Esko systems) have what they call color strategies, which is where your Pantone LUT resides. I am sure you have used this sort of process before as it is pretty common. Add the Pantone color to the LUT, edit away. When Esko rips the file it applies your recipe for edited Pantone colors. The file that goes to the press is CMYK/OGV at that time. Like I said I am sure there are plenty of colors that can benefit from the OGV, we just haven't came across one yet. If we do start needing to use the OGV regularly, I would setup a new workflow with those colors turned on, but leave the CMYK Only workflow in place for non problem colors so Esko doesn't use those inks when they are not needed.

 

[Bill W]

We have 3 Indigo presses in 3 different plants using the Esko DFE. I have attached a PDF file that compares all the PMS in both 7 and 4 colors and their Esko predicted dE values to the Pantone library. Based on a tolerance between the dE of 4 and 7 color PMS separations we would print 521 colors in 7 color and the remaining 1265 colors in 4 color.

The big challenge is in my mind how accurate the predicted dE values are. We have printed out the Esko supplied PMS books for the strategies we have made and I took the time, about 3 hours, to measure the one for semi gloss with UV varnish to see how close the printed dE values were to the predicted. My downfall was that we also printed through the same strategy on one of other plants and their colors looked different. After scratching my head a bit I discovered that when we printed the first book the operator had set the press to 075 gain when the profile had been printed at linear. We have reprinted the first book and it now, visually, it matches the second book we printed at our other facility.

My biggest challenge with the Esko profiling workflow is that you cannot average targets when either profiling the press. I know the Indigo has some variation between frames and even within a frame and would feel much better about the press profile if I could do some averaging.

When I have some time I might measure my printed PMS book to compare to the predicted values.

View attachment 7C_vs_4C.pdf

 

[gordo]

We have 3 Indigo presses in 3 different plants using the Esko DFE. I have attached a PDF file that compares all the PMS in both 7 and 4 colors and their Esko predicted dE values to the Pantone library. Based on a tolerance between the dE of 4 and 7 color PMS separations we would print 521 colors in 7 color and the remaining 1265 colors in 4 color.

The big challenge is in my mind how accurate the predicted dE values are. We have printed out the Esko supplied PMS books for the strategies we have made and I took the time, about 3 hours, to measure the one for semi gloss with UV varnish to see how close the printed dE values were to the predicted. My downfall was that we also printed through the same strategy on one of other plants and their colors looked different. After scratching my head a bit I discovered that when we printed the first book the operator had set the press to 075 gain when the profile had been printed at linear. We have reprinted the first book and it now, visually, it matches the second book we printed at our other facility.

My biggest challenge with the Esko profiling workflow is that you cannot average targets when either profiling the press. I know the Indigo has some variation between frames and even within a frame and would feel much better about the press profile if I could do some averaging.

When I have some time I might measure my printed PMS book to compare to the predicted values.

Bill thanks for that.

Some questions (you or others might be able to answer)

When 7/C is called for in your chart I assume that's not representative of what actually will happen. What will actually happen is that one or more of the EG inks will be used either in combination with the 4/C inks or in combination with each other to represent the target color. So, any particular patch of color made of screens of inks won't be made up of 7 inks but some smaller number. Is that correct?

Is there a maximum number of inks allowable for use in any given specific screen tint build? (E.g. A rule that says no more than 3 ink colors may be used in any screen tint build.)

If you feel that that adjusting the EG recipe (e.g. adding 4% V) will give you a closer visual match to the target color can you edit that recipe? If so how so, where so.

Are maximum GCR techniques used in creating the recipes? (i.e. using K instead of a chromatic color in a screen tint build)

Can you use ink colors other than the prescribed EG ink hues (e.g. Coca-Cola Red instead of Orange)?

Must you always use a 7/C process or can you set yourself up as a 5 or 6 color process instead?

Thanks again.

 

[DavidH]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the feedback. The latest version of Color Engine Pilot supplied with the HP SmartStream DFE now includes an option for creating multiple patches in the target and averaging them. You can get an update to the DFE from HP.

Regards,
David (Product Manager at Esko)

 

[Bill W]

Greetings David

I have the latest version of the DFE and have done a few iterations of the PMS colors and have found the "fine tuning" of the PMS color breakdowns is not worth the time it took to do it. The challenge is that each iteration is a one shot view of the press. The change in colors breaks from one iteration to another may just be because of variation in the press itself. Once again, in my mind the entire profile / PMS iteration process needs to be able to average multiple sheets off the press, not just multiple colors in the sheet, to accurately predict what the press will be printing. This is how it is done in other printing types, such as offset and flexo.