Best Digital Printer today

[SteveA]

I have a great opportunity to upgrade my color printing equipment. My current machines are coming off lease. They are a Xerox 2060 and a Doc 12, which we have had for almost 8 years. We have gotten every dime out of the 2060, putting between 60,000 and 100,000 clicks per month for the entire period. These are balanced fairly evenly between letter and 11x17/12x18 and also between paper and card up to 100lb hammermill color copy cover and 100lb utopia c1s and c2s, and single-sided 110lb classic crest. The Doc12 is a great but slow back-up which we put 8,000 - 10,000 clicks per month.

Our options: Xerox 5000AP/Xerox 700 or Xerox 7000AP/Xerox 700 or Canon 7000VP/Canon 6000 or Xerox iGen4-110/Xerox 700 or Xerox iGen 3-90/Xerox 700.

The iGen3-90 option has been offered as a slightly used demo unit at an incredible price, slightly below the Xerox 5000AP/700 option. But the size of the machine scares me (it can fit easily - it's just a lot of square footage). We are also considering giving up our docutech and putting some of our b&w volume onto the iGen.

So the question is - if I can get an iGen3-90 for the same price as a 5000AP do I do it? And does anyone have an opinion of the Canon 7000VP or 6000? Canon's direct sales arm would be my vendor and they seem eager to serve the print-for-pay community all of a sudden.

 

[lfelton]

I have a great opportunity to upgrade my color printing equipment. My current machines are coming off lease. They are a Xerox 2060 and a Doc 12, which we have had for almost 8 years. We have gotten every dime out of the 2060, putting between 60,000 and 100,000 clicks per month for the entire period. These are balanced fairly evenly between letter and 11x17/12x18 and also between paper and card up to 100lb hammermill color copy cover and 100lb utopia c1s and c2s, and single-sided 110lb classic crest. The Doc12 is a great but slow back-up which we put 8,000 - 10,000 clicks per month.

Our options: Xerox 5000AP/Xerox 700 or Xerox 7000AP/Xerox 700 or Canon 7000VP/Canon 6000 or Xerox iGen4-110/Xerox 700 or Xerox iGen 3-90/Xerox 700.

The iGen3-90 option has been offered as a slightly used demo unit at an incredible price, slightly below the Xerox 5000AP/700 option. But the size of the machine scares me (it can fit easily - it's just a lot of square footage). We are also considering giving up our docutech and putting some of our b&w volume onto the iGen.

So the question is - if I can get an iGen3-90 for the same price as a 5000AP do I do it? And does anyone have an opinion of the Canon 7000VP or 6000? Canon's direct sales arm would be my vendor and they seem eager to serve the print-for-pay community all of a sudden.

That sounds like an _incredible_ deal on the iGen3 and if the click rate was right then I'd take the deal (over the 5000AP) in a heartbeat. Having said that, my impression is that the iGen3 (we're currently looking at iGens and Canon 7000VP) will involve more operator maintenance than the 5000. I've also heard experienced operators say that an iGen is happiest when it is being run constantly and as you only have a relatively low monthly volume, you need to be sure that wouldn't cause you any problems.

So far, the print samples that we've had from Canon (off of a 7000VP) have been around the same quality as a Xerox 7000AP/8000AP (or a KM6501), but the running costs are higher. However Canon are coming back in next week to present "improved" samples and a new proposal, so possibly we don't have the full picture yet.

 

[Craig]

I agree with lfelton on this as well, make sure you have the volume to keep an iGen running.

 

[GregNac19]

I agree with lfelton on this as well, make sure you have the volume to keep an iGen running.

The great news is the IGEN3 cost is soo low now, you could live with a much lower volume and still have a great margin without the 2nd and 3rd shift needed. Plus this machine has been battle tested.

Look at the TCO and hope you can get the IGEN3. It is large, however, you buy one and every Tom, Dick, and Harry from Xerox will be at your shop to set it up and support you.

 

[lfelton]

The great news is the IGEN3 cost is soo low now, you could live with a much lower volume and still have a great margin without the 2nd and 3rd shift needed. Plus this machine has been battle tested.

Look at the TCO and hope you can get the IGEN3. It is large, however, you buy one and every Tom, Dick, and Harry from Xerox will be at your shop to set it up and support you.

Hmmm... well Xerox UK are quoting $290,000 for a basic spec refurbished (AKA used) iGen3, so I still wouldn't call that cheap but I take your point that it's better than the $580,000 they were asking for a base spec (new) iGen3 up until recently.

BTW - aren't we meant to be calling the used iGen3s that are being remarketed under this program "iGen Classic", or was that just a windup by our local rep?

 

[SteveA]

This is an iGen3 with extra paper deck (4 total drawers), and ACQS added. Remanufactured and reset to zero clicks. The questions are: How does it compare in print quality to the 5000AP? Will either machine be more likely to not be outdated at the end of it's lease? (60-month for 5000, 72-month for iGen3) Will my staff who is used to running the 2060 be able to adjust to the iGen environment?

Additional question: If I add a Xerox 700 as a back-up machine (replacing Doc12) to either the 5000 or iGen, will customers like the 700 quality enough to request it over the 5000 or iGen? (that would be bad).

 

[SteveA]

And one more question about the iGen3 and it's volume recommendations....

What is the opinion of whether the volume recommendation is strictly a financial number (can't make money unless you do atleast 200,000 clicks or however many) or whether there is a true correlation between service issues and low volume machines. We run tons of short runs. Very few runs over 1000 and most runs between 5 and 500. (we will probably implement a minimum charge of like $25 to avoid singles being requested to the iGen)

Will we have quality problems with our iGen with short runs and total volume of less than 100,000 impressions? Or am I right to think the iGen3 should be by far the most reliable in this volume range. Then I would limit my concerns to space, operator training, and pure cost analysis.

 

[lfelton]

I've got to say Steve, this looks like a no-brainer to me. 5000AP vs remanufactured iGen3 upgraded with ACQS (that takes it pretty near to iGen4) and the iGen is CHEAPER??

Quite honestly, if the click rate is attractive, you'd be mad to even consider the 5000AP IMO. ACQS is a real productivity enhancer and will keep your colour consistency much more reliable.

I think the output from the iGen3 is streets ahead of the 5000AP (plus bigger sheets, plus heavier stock) but that's the easy bit for you to test - just get some print samples (your own, not some daft picture of Spiderman).

You are right on the edge of the minimum recommended volume (don't forget the 200,000 minimum in the brochure refers to A4/letter size and A3 counts as 2x in that volume count).

Why can't we get deals like this in Europe????????

 

[[email protected]]

You'd do yourself a disservice if you didn't check out the Ricoh C900 production printer. 90 images/min no matter what the stock, up to 300gsm. And in spite of other's concerns about their commitment to the production arena, I can tell you that Ricoh is extremely serious about supporting commercial printers and in-plants. It's available from either Ricoh direct or Ikon.

Production Printing - Copiers - Multifunction Copiers - Ricoh-USA

 

[Craig]

You'd do yourself a disservice if you didn't check out the Ricoh C900 production printer. 90 images/min no matter what the stock, up to 300gsm. And in spite of other's concerns about their commitment to the production arena, I can tell you that Ricoh is extremely serious about supporting commercial printers and in-plants. It's available from either Ricoh direct or Ikon.

Production Printing - Copiers - Multifunction Copiers - Ricoh-USA

There is no way in hell the C900, 7000VP, 8000AP or 4 KM6500's will be able to compete head to head with an iGen when you are talking the type of volume and substrates an iGen is designed to handle.

I know Xerox is getting creative with the pricing of iGen's for those of us who don't have the volume to support one, but you really need to take a good hard look at the whole picture before you decide on price alone.

 

[[email protected]]

C900 Sweet Spot

C900 Sweet Spot

There is no way in hell the C900, 7000VP, 8000AP or 4 KM6500's will be able to compete head to head with an iGen when you are talking the type of volume and substrates an iGen is designed to handle.

I know Xerox is getting creative with the pricing of iGen's for those of us who don't have the volume to support one, but you really need to take a good hard look at the whole picture before you decide on price alone.

Well the C900's sweet spot is ~200k so everything else being equal you could get multiple C900's for the price of one iGen.

 

[Craig]

Well the C900's sweet spot is ~200k so everything else being equal you could get multiple C900's for the price of one iGen.

Wrong, the C900, 8000AP, 7000VP, 6501 will NOT handle the same substrates as an iGen. You could have 1 of each and not be able to replace an iGen.

 

[billyinlasvegas]

I just saw a demo of an iGen4 and I can honestly say I was impressed!

I've run a both the 2060 and the 12 and currently have 2 5000's (non AP).

You'll love the iGen4! But you've got to have crazy volume!

 

[simpleprint]

Wrong, the C900, 8000AP, 7000VP, 6501 will NOT handle the same substrates as an iGen. You could have 1 of each and not be able to replace an iGen.

This may be true, still such declaritive statements should be accompanied with factual evidence to be of any real benefit. This is not a passive-aggressive attempt at being snarky...You refer to "the whole picture" I would indeed be much obliged if would elaborate please?

 

[[email protected]]

Wrong, the C900, 8000AP, 7000VP, 6501 will NOT handle the same substrates as an iGen. You could have 1 of each and not be able to replace an iGen.

You are correct, toner-breath! I should've elaborated. ASSUMING that the C900 or any other box can handle one's required stocks why pay for an iGen if your volume doesn't support one, and especially if you couldn't make sense of the costs? I have nothing against them, just that I've seen my share of printers go out of business partially due to overreaching on the technology side. A Nexpress or a DI can do things an iGen can't do. Point is you got to consider all factors not just the specs.

 

[Jtamoe46]

Wow...who put that deal together...have them call me. I am an Agent for Xerox and if that is accurate, the price of the Igen is the same as a 5000AP and a 700....then you go for the Igen. I don't care how creative your sales rep is, that is unbelievable. I have at least 3 customers who would take that deal right now if I offered it to them.

Where are you located?

 

[TONYTOOL]

There is no way in hell the C900, 7000VP, 8000AP or 4 KM6500's will be able to compete head to head with an iGen when you are talking the type of volume and substrates an iGen is designed to handle.

I know Xerox is getting creative with the pricing of iGen's for those of us who don't have the volume to support one, but you really need to take a good hard look at the whole picture before you decide on price alone.

2 not 4 KM6500'S will compete on most jobs not all. But at a fraction of the cost, who cares what name it wears. If you do all fine art prints on textured(rough) uncoated, then the iGen has an edge. But, for most everyday print for Profit, 2x KM6500's work just fine.

 

[testarossa]

HP INDIGO 5000, 5500.........best of all

 

[odiseas]

igen 3-90

igen 3-90

think about you're doing now and what you'll be able to do with the igen...can make more if u thik BIG...

EDISSA
digital & offset shop
Panama, C.A.

 

[andreisarbu]

igen3

igen3

In my opinion there is ridiculous to compare an iGen3 even with 2-4 KM6501. The KM are toys compared with that press and can not match quality, speed, substrates flexibility, consistency (ACQS) and costs (apart from many other aspects) over the iGen. I'd go for an iGen3 if the things are as you described. I really don't understand why some of us don't realize that sustaining a solution has some limits and you should stop before becoming pathetic.

IMHO nobody should by an iGen with monthly volumes below 4-500k, but in that special case that rule doesn't apply.