best way to re-sensitize chrome dampening roller?

[Albert Noel]

the press is a '99 roland 300. i'm looking for the best way to resensitize the chrome (coated?) waterpan roller. though we regularly maintain water form and meter rollers they have never really seen maintenance.

 

[Lukew]

KATSURA Chrome maticlean works a treat.

 

[Albert Noel]

KATSURA Chrome maticlean works a treat.

any ideas as to where i might get that in canada?

 

[Alois Senefelder]

re Chrome Roller

re Chrome Roller

Hi Al , just go to your local supermarket, look in the household washing/cleaners section

and buy some "Cream Cleanser" for household utensils (forMetal) such as Stainless Steel. Apply to "Chrome Roller" using a clean Rag, vigorously clean then Rinse with clean water - next "GUM - UP " the roller using Plate Gum or use a Gum-etch solution, leave to dry as long as possible and WALLAH an unbroken film of Dampening Solution should cover the roller.

Oh you -- Desensitize the Chrome Rollers in any Dampening System - which makes them - Hydrophilic (Like Water)

Sensitize - means to make an area like " INK " ie Oleophilic

Regards, Alois

 

[Albert Noel]

yes alios, i actually meant de-sensitize.
i was speaking with the senior operator today and he informed me that they are actually ceramic, not chrome. will it work the same?

i will try this but will it work for ceramic pan rollers as well?

Hi Al , just go to your local supermarket, look in the household washing/cleaners section

and buy some "Cream Cleanser" for household utensils (forMetal) such as Stainless Steel. Apply to "Chrome Roller" using a clean Rag, vigorously clean then Rinse with clean water - next "GUM - UP " the roller using Plate Gum or use a Gum-etch solution, leave to dry as long as possible and WALLAH an unbroken film of Dampening Solution should cover the roller.

Oh you -- Desensitize the Chrome Rollers in any Dampening System - which makes them - Hydrophilic (Like Water)

Sensitize - means to make an area like " INK " ie Oleophilic

Regards, Alois

 

[flyby54]

the press is a '99 roland 300. i'm looking for the best way to resensitize the chrome (coated?) waterpan roller. though we regularly maintain water form and meter rollers they have never really seen maintenance.

I have found that if you apply a coating of gum to the roller and let it dry overnight, then dampen it next day it sometimes solves the problem.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Desensitizing rollers

Desensitizing rollers

Hi Al -- the "Cream Cleanser" should be OK I use it to remove "Heavy Tea Stains" from brew mugs !!!!!!!! seriously, if doubtful --- just try on a small area of the Ceramic roller at first .


Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Desenitizing Rollers # 2

Desenitizing Rollers # 2

Hi Al, you could also try using Plate Cleaner, if it is a "Creamy Type" I'm not a lover of "Ceramic Pan Roller" too porous a surface that becomes "Embedded " with Ink over time, so degrading its performance. Just stay with "Chrome Rollers "


Regards, Alois

 

[Albert Noel]

Hi Al, you could also try using Plate Cleaner, if it is a "Creamy Type" I'm not a lover of "Ceramic Pan Roller" too porous a surface that becomes "Embedded " with Ink over time, so degrading its performance. Just stay with "Chrome Rollers "


Regards, Alois

i will give this a try on monday morning.
yeah, myself and the other operator on this press hate the fact that they are ceramic instead of a more conventional chrome. not sure why man roland chose this route on this model.
we always get the "oh you have ceramic? you poor bastard" from people when we try to sort out dampening issues lol.

 

[jbeniston]

What is actually happening to your ceramic water pan rollers? what series 300 do you have?

 

[Albert Noel]

i don't think they are as receptive to the fountain solution as they once were. all these years of meter cleaner and other junk/fountain solution/ etc. just wanted to perform some maintenance/cleaning on them and see if there is any improvement.

the press in question is a 305 w/coater from '99/'00 (installed in '00)

your first name wouldn't happen to be john/jon by any chance would it? if so, i think you may have actually been in the press room with our press when it was installed/had something to do with the in house training.

 

[jbeniston]

Since your 300 is in Canada/Ontario it's highly likely. What is the name of your company, if your problem is what I think it is, I can help you. Are you seeing greasy areas on the ceramics, are they taking ink?

 

[Albert Noel]

Henderson Printing is the company. you may be familiar with the name marc stratton. he's the sr. operator and was there when it was installed (i came in a year after)

as for the problem, there isn't really any greasy areas per say, but some discoloration and fountain solution tends to bead up in some areas on some of the units when the meter is disengaged and incoming solution supply is off.. (say if you were to drip some onto the pan roller) after doing some reading, i came to the conclusion that it may be that they have alot chem soaked into them and not as Hydrophilic as they were when new. we do tend to have to run water settings pretty high even though fountain solution/roller settings havent changed. as for taking ink, the meter and the form take on tonnes of ink but the ceramic doesn't (well, after very long runs it can sometimes take on ink at the ends) the water form and meter are set according to factory spec.

unfortunately, we are using a very harsh meter cleaner and the ceramics have definitely come into contact with it over the years, if that matters.

i should also point out, it's no major issue at this point. we can still print just fine. this is more like preventative maintenance / experimentation, as i am sure it wil develop into more of an issue over time

 

[jbeniston]

1) Get rid of the MRC, it might be causing the rubber to harden up. Shore "A" should be 25~27 when new 33~37 when done in. Get a good MRC from Prisco or somebody, it should not be too volatile.
2). The fact that your rubber is contaminated with ink indicates that the fountain concentrate you are using is not doing the job or the wetting agent used is not compatible. Maybe the concentration is wrong for your application. Why not try a different one say from Fuji. They make a very good "etch"
3) Make sure you follow the manufacturer's rec's. Measurements, unless expressed in metric units, are always in U.S gallons. To change U.S. gallons to a percentage for the doser setting, multiply the required ounces per gallon by 0.78 and set the dosers to the answer. Start at the lowest stated dose and work from there.
4) make sure the system is spotless.
5) set the temparature in the technotrans tank to 10.5 deg celsius, it will be 12.5 degrees by the time it reaches the water pans.
TO CLEAN THE CERAMICS
which by the way, despite what any else says, are far superior to chrome plate
1) you should remove them from the press. It is not that easy. If you cannot do it the following can be done with roller in situ but you must be EXTREMELY CAREFUL.
2)Turn off the technotrnas and then remove ALL the dampener rollers and allow the ceramic to dry
3) Put a layer of cloths or paper towel in the water pan and block off the drain hole
4) Using a 2 inch paint brush, paint a layer (fairly thick) of normal paint stripper on the surface of the ceramic roller. Leave it on over night.
5) Wash it off with lots of clean water on a sponge the next day, remove the stuff in the water pan and make sure the pan is thouroughly cleaned.
6)Fill the technotrans with water only and set it running and flush the system a couple of times. Do not use the cooling, turn it off. When you are sure the system is absolutely clean allow the ceramics to dry. AT THIS TIME DO NOT ALLOW ANY CONTACT WITH THE SURFACE OF THE CERAMICS BY HANDS OR ANY GREASY MATERIALS.
7)Gum up the ceramic with gum arabic and let it dry
8) The ceramic is now desenstized

 

[Albert Noel]

this is definitely the reason why I've heard so many good things about you in the past!
thank you for all that info.

our rubber are, i believe, shore "a" 25 when new. surprisingly, they aren't getting too hard from the cleaner. the form stays nice and soft, the meter gets a little harder but it's within 10 of the new number.

as for the technotrans, that's a whole other can of worms. we aren't using the dosers at all. we had someone come on board with us claiming they didn't work at all and somehow convinced the production manager that we should be mixing in a tank and transferring to the technotrans. (turns out the filters in the ends of the wands, were clogged) it's what we've been doing for some time now (even thought that operator doesnt work with us anymore). it's not really any better than the dosers and very inconvenient. though it's nearly impossible to convince the manager of that. we are currently using anchor jr /ars-61 which we get from fuji.

as for the ceramics, i will give it a shot as soon as i can. i've had one out before, not terribly hard to get one out. i will pull them completely and do it in a clean area
thank you for the info, very much appreciated.

1) Get rid of the MRC, it might be causing the rubber to harden up. Shore "A" should be 25~27 when new 33~37 when done in. Get a good MRC from Prisco or somebody, it should not be too volatile.
2). The fact that your rubber is contaminated with ink indicates that the fountain concentrate you are using is not doing the job or the wetting agent used is not compatible. Maybe the concentration is wrong for your application. Why not try a different one say from Fuji. They make a very good "etch"
3) Make sure you follow the manufacturer's rec's. Measurements, unless expressed in metric units, are always in U.S gallons. To change U.S. gallons to a percentage for the doser setting, multiply the required ounces per gallon by 0.78 and set the dosers to the answer. Start at the lowest stated dose and work from there.
4) make sure the system is spotless.
5) set the temparature in the technotrans tank to 10.5 deg celsius, it will be 12.5 degrees by the time it reaches the water pans.
TO CLEAN THE CERAMICS
which by the way, despite what any else says, are far superior to chrome plate
1) you should remove them from the press. It is not that easy. If you cannot do it the following can be done with roller in situ but you must be EXTREMELY CAREFUL.
2)Turn off the technotrnas and then remove ALL the dampener rollers and allow the ceramic to dry
3) Put a layer of cloths or paper towel in the water pan and block off the drain hole
4) Using a 2 inch paint brush, paint a layer (fairly thick) of normal paint stripper on the surface of the ceramic roller. Leave it on over night.
5) Wash it off with lots of clean water on a sponge the next day, remove the stuff in the water pan and make sure the pan is thouroughly cleaned.
6)Fill the technotrans with water only and set it running and flush the system a couple of times. Do not use the cooling, turn it off. When you are sure the system is absolutely clean allow the ceramics to dry. AT THIS TIME DO NOT ALLOW ANY CONTACT WITH THE SURFACE OF THE CERAMICS BY HANDS OR ANY GREASY MATERIALS.
7)Gum up the ceramic with gum arabic and let it dry
8) The ceramic is now desenstized

 

[jbeniston]

as far as the technotrans is cocerned: if you want to start reusing it try this:
Take the two pick-up wands. At the end that is normally in the solutions you will find grey coloured castllated plastic inserts. Take hold of the edge of one of them with a pair of pliers and pull it out. You will see a white screeen attached to it(or should be white) Run this under hot water until clean and clear, do the same with the other one. Re-insert them when you're satisfied that there are no contaminants left on them.
Next: on the dosers there are two small tubes which connect the dosers to the water supply. At the end closest to the body of the doser is a connection. Take this apart very carefully and watch out that you don't lose the small spring and platic ball. This is a one way valve and they can become plugged up with the chemicals you use and not allow the dosers to perforem properly. Run them under hot water too, don't let them go down the plug hole or you will be really screwed. When they're clean reassemble the units, ( be carefull the plastic parts are not very strong and can break easily) put the wands back in the chemicals turn the dosers to maximum (right to the top) and turn on the water supply, the doser will star up and the maximum setting will draw turn of stuff up and purge any air from the system. Once you can see the stuff coming out and mixing with the water stop it, reset the dosers to the correct percentage, dump the tank and refill it again. I tshould now work just fine. We have had virtually no trouble with them over the years even older models like yours continue to give great service. Thry remove all human error from the masuring etc and save you time. Good luck, if you need to talk to me you can call any time up to 23:00 hours. Call the office and they will transfer the call to me whereever I am.

 

[Albert Noel]

i have taken the filters out of the ends of the wands and cleaned them but i had no idea there were spring loaded one-way valves in there. i will most definitly look into it.

thank you again for all your help and the great info!

as far as the technotrans is cocerned: if you want to start reusing it try this:
Take the two pick-up wands. At the end that is normally in the solutions you will find grey coloured castllated plastic inserts. Take hold of the edge of one of them with a pair of pliers and pull it out. You will see a white screeen attached to it(or should be white) Run this under hot water until clean and clear, do the same with the other one. Re-insert them when you're satisfied that there are no contaminants left on them.
Next: on the dosers there are two small tubes which connect the dosers to the water supply. At the end closest to the body of the doser is a connection. Take this apart very carefully and watch out that you don't lose the small spring and platic ball. This is a one way valve and they can become plugged up with the chemicals you use and not allow the dosers to perforem properly. Run them under hot water too, don't let them go down the plug hole or you will be really screwed. When they're clean reassemble the units, ( be carefull the plastic parts are not very strong and can break easily) put the wands back in the chemicals turn the dosers to maximum (right to the top) and turn on the water supply, the doser will star up and the maximum setting will draw turn of stuff up and purge any air from the system. Once you can see the stuff coming out and mixing with the water stop it, reset the dosers to the correct percentage, dump the tank and refill it again. I tshould now work just fine. We have had virtually no trouble with them over the years even older models like yours continue to give great service. Thry remove all human error from the masuring etc and save you time. Good luck, if you need to talk to me you can call any time up to 23:00 hours. Call the office and they will transfer the call to me whereever I am.

 

[Albert Noel]

i ordered some 100% gum Arabic and it came in yesterday. we are going to pull one of the ceramics and try your method. which kind of paint stripper? something like varsol? i'm unsure and don't want to damage anything.

as for the technotrans, i pulled the spring loaded ball valves out and sure enough the one we used for the etch/concentrate was plugged and not moving freely.
i also pulled out the screens from the bottom of the wands and one was bad. i replaced it with a spare we had on had but it still wasnt working right.
i managed to pull it off again to check and didn't even notice that there was another one-way ball style valve in the ends behind the screens. one of them was fine but the other was stuck so hard that i actually broke it trying to free it up. surprisingly, we had a spare, so i installed it and it fired up and worked beautifully. i ran one job (about 8000imp. )unfortunately, i immediately had to set water settings about 10-15 higher (65-70 vs the 55-60 i was averaging while on the premixed stuff we were making) in my console settings. perhaps the gum arabic will change something. i think i somehow did the math wrong when setting the dosers. for some reason i came up with 3.5% etch and 2.5% sub when i think it should be 2.4% etch and 2% sub. i will change them on monday and see what happens.


Albert

as far as the technotrans is cocerned: if you want to start reusing it try this:
Take the two pick-up wands. At the end that is normally in the solutions you will find grey coloured castllated plastic inserts. Take hold of the edge of one of them with a pair of pliers and pull it out. You will see a white screeen attached to it(or should be white) Run this under hot water until clean and clear, do the same with the other one. Re-insert them when you're satisfied that there are no contaminants left on them.
Next: on the dosers there are two small tubes which connect the dosers to the water supply. At the end closest to the body of the doser is a connection. Take this apart very carefully and watch out that you don't lose the small spring and platic ball. This is a one way valve and they can become plugged up with the chemicals you use and not allow the dosers to perforem properly. Run them under hot water too, don't let them go down the plug hole or you will be really screwed. When they're clean reassemble the units, ( be carefull the plastic parts are not very strong and can break easily) put the wands back in the chemicals turn the dosers to maximum (right to the top) and turn on the water supply, the doser will star up and the maximum setting will draw turn of stuff up and purge any air from the system. Once you can see the stuff coming out and mixing with the water stop it, reset the dosers to the correct percentage, dump the tank and refill it again. I tshould now work just fine. We have had virtually no trouble with them over the years even older models like yours continue to give great service. Thry remove all human error from the masuring etc and save you time. Good luck, if you need to talk to me you can call any time up to 23:00 hours. Call the office and they will transfer the call to me whereever I am.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Ceramic Rollers !

Ceramic Rollers !

Hi everyone, seeing this thread is about "Ceramic Dampening Rollers ie Pan roller"
and the the "man from MAN " has spoke ! It's a "MOOT" point about Chrome v. Ceramic rollers, and I'm not talking about "Car Bumper Chromium" plated rollers, only the correct type of "Chrome Rollers" ie Hydro-Chrome, To get back to "Ceramic Rollers" may I recommend that anyone running a Press fitted with the "Said" rollers visit -- COATEC.DE - DEUTSCH: Startseite where the will find a wealth of "INFO" about Ceramic Rollers --
OH should anyone also need INFO about "Chrome Rollers" they should visit --
EASYLAC

Regards, and looking forward to the replys !!!!!!!!!!!!

Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Chrome rollers visit "Easylac.de"

regards, Alois