Color matching matte to gloss. Paper to film...

[FlexoGrunt]

Hello everyone,
We are currently using a spot color across several product lines and of course these different products are printed in different locations (in China). Our first thought to get the colors in order was to establish a DeltaE standard and issue that along with the Pantone color to the vendors. Well the first round of samples came back and they do not match (go figure).

The DeltaE of the glossy elements to the Pantone book is at 2.5 or less.
The DeltaE of the matte elements to the Pantone book is at 8.5 - 9.2.

The vendor of the matte materials is saying that they are merely hitting the book at press and because the lamination is applied after the run and their lamination variance (not only our gloss to their matte but also run to run!) getting a tighter tolerance cannot be expected. They then asked us to send them a finished sample of a gloss box to match to (ok, why not just hit the Pantone?).

I am a little stuck as to how to proceed with these vendors since our internal processes have us matching Pantone colors across substrates all the time.

Thank you in advance for your input.

 

[PDL]

Why not give on to the Eskoartwork folks a crack at this. Contact them at this link.
EskoArtwork Consultancy: Boosting Customer Value

 

[gordo]

I am a little stuck as to how to proceed with these vendors since our internal processes have us matching Pantone colors across substrates all the time.

Perhaps you could share your methods with those vendors?

gordon p

 

[FlexoGrunt]

Perhaps you could share your methods with those vendors?

gordon p

Right. Tried that.

I am making a grand assumption that since they are not finishing inline like we are they would have to follow a different procedure (note their statement of variance). Since the vendor is telling us a Pantone color and a DeltaE is not an acceptable way of testing and approving color across substrates then is there a better way to proceed? (we are flexo, they are offset).

 

[martin.weberg]

Are they printing using the specified spot or CMYK colours?

Martin Weberg

 

[FlexoGrunt]

From what we can see they are printing with spot colors as well.

 

[martin.weberg]

If they are printing with spot colours and post-laminate I'd recommend following method.

Test run. First, match print and reference (Pantone swatch). Gradually decrease bellow best match, then increase above best match. Key is documenting the wet densities and marking the printed sheets.
Alternatively, print a bar across the sheet with a density gradient (low density on one end and high density on the other). Document wet density along the gradient.

Let dry and laminate the sheets. Let dry again.

Now, single out the best matching sheet using dE (be sure to use the same formula 1976, 2000 etc) and use the same wet density for production. Alternatively, measure dE along the gradient bar and pick the corresponding wet density value.

Of course, print operators now must print by numbers and not by visual match.

Martin Weberg

 

[gordo]

Just speculating...the Chinese printers may be doing exactly what N. American printers do - and that is to mix their Pantone colors according to the Pantone formulas. Those formulas are for offset and do not include target CIEL*a*b* values nor associated DeltaE values. If there were DeltaE values, they would have to vary according to the hue that's being printed, and likely the substrate and printing method being used (e.g. offset vs flexo.

I think that, because of these issues, every offset packaging printer and brand owner that I've ever visited does not work with DeltaE values for their Pantone or brand spot colors. Instead they use their own swatch samples printed on the substrate and process they're using and simply include a high/low density sample for the press operator to measure and fall within.

It would be great if you could share your methodology with this forum.

best, gordon p

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Just speculating...the Chinese printers may be doing exactly what N. American printers do - and that is to mix their Pantone colors according to the Pantone formulas. Those formulas are for offset and do not include target CIEL*a*b* values nor associated DeltaE values. If there were DeltaE values, they would have to vary according to the hue that's being printed, and likely the substrate and printing method being used (e.g. offset vs flexo.

I think that, because of these issues, every offset packaging printer and brand owner that I've ever visited does not work with DeltaE values for their Pantone or brand spot colors. Instead they use their own swatch samples printed on the substrate and process they're using and simply include a high/low density sample for the press operator to measure and fall within.

It would be great if you could share your methodology with this forum.

best, gordon p

Gordon,

I am quite sure the formulas for mixing ink for Pantone colours are based on only using Pantone mixing inks printed on the target substrate. The formulas do not work well with other ink systems and other substrates. Each formula has to be specially created and confirmed to match.

I have seen a specification from a brand customer that specified DeltaE values for spot colours. So it does exist but is not always practical. That customer wanted drawdowns also.

 

[gordo]

Gordon,

I am quite sure the formulas for mixing ink for Pantone colours are based on only using Pantone mixing inks printed on the target substrate. The formulas do not work well with other ink systems and other substrates. Each formula has to be specially created and confirmed to match.

I have seen a specification from a brand customer that specified DeltaE values for spot colours. So it does exist but is not always practical. That customer wanted drawdowns also.

Yup. That's what I was trying to say.

gordon p