Color matching

[viswanaathan_r]

Hi,
Please put up with this rudimentary question. When a print buyer specifies a pantone number as a reference for color and the job is to be say matt laminated, whether the printer should match the color before or after matt lamination

 

[gordo]

Hi,
Please put up with this rudimentary question. When a print buyer specifies a pantone number as a reference for color and the job is to be say matt laminated, whether the printer should match the color before or after matt lamination

If the printer knows what the color will look like after lamination and as a result can match the color after lamination then that is what the printer should do.

However, most printers do not know how a PMS color will shift as a result of lamination and should tell the customer that the hue may, sometimes dramatically, shift as a result of the lamination process.

If you can do a draw down of the PMS color on the correct stock and laminate it then you might be able to predict the hue shift.

As always, communicate. There are areas where the result is difficult to predict. Let the customer know this so that they are prepared.

best, gordo

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

I haven't seen a Pantone book for laminated. The only books I know (which is what can be used for matching) are for matt, coatad and uncoated…*if you are looking at laminated which book do you expect the printer to match? The only way you can get what you want is to have a discussion with the printer about what you want. Matching to a laminated surface would be very hard. It would mean that the printer would need to print his own guide of potential matches, keep one copy laminate the other, then use the laminated copy to match, and his pre-laminated print as a target for his own matching (which would be dry and he is probably printing wet)

So asking the printer to target a pantone from a standard swatch book with laminated print is asking much . Are you willing to pay for the research?

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Maybe the printer could get the customer to ok an ink drawdown that was half matte coated. This would at least show them how much the matte would change the colour and it would be cheaper.

 

[Gianni_S]

Hi all,
we shall consider the fact that during lamination the roll may vary its transparency... this is an annoying problem!
I've noticed different hue variation from a roll to another roll during lamination; always using the same type of material (it was gloss lamination). Going on matt lamination the change is dramatically worst.
I'm practically born in a pressfarm, in the last 30 years I've learned that PMS color should match with print without lamination... Sorry, no one can predict the color variation during lamination.
Bye!

 

[Correct Color]

If you're printing a spot color traditionally, for a whole lot of reasons it's really only feasible to match before, unless the client understands up front that there's going to be quite a bit of cost incurred in attempting to match after.

If you're printing digitally, however, and in particular large format, and this is a media/laminate combination you use a lot, it's certainly possible to do a laminated profile of the material. Set up correctly, that'd give you your best shot at PMS color matching after lamination.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

We actually printed a CMYK IT8.7 and laminated it, or rather had a test chart and slipped it along once we had a job that needed laminating, I did an ICC on that chart. The matt books never match laminating, it's a different method and colour behaves different some pigments (reds) are enhanced by the laminate for some reason.

 

[oldschool]

We roll out spot colors on two sheets. We laminate one and check to see final color. Lamination cycles vary due to time and temperature and can shift your color dramatically.

 

[viswanaathan_r]

Thanks folks for the answers. My current problems is both my ink suppliers are not answering my phone - I do not have inhouse ink kitchen you see.

 

[rich apollo]

A lot depends on the production of the final piece. If you're running spot colors I wonder if you could proof out a sheet of Pantone swatches, laminate it, read the result with a spectrophotometer, and then edit the look up tables of your proofing RIP. Most proofing RIPs exclude spot colors from the color transforms and pull color values directly from internal look up tables.

If you're running process, then you'll have to utilize a two proof solution. You have to proof to match the final laminated product for the client, and you'll have to send a proof for the unlaminated result to match on press.

If you need it, I have a file with 1500 Pantone swatches (the complete coated library from INDD CS4) that I can share with you.

 

[david m. baker]

Howdy:

There are a lot of good responses here, and I won't contradict any of the advice offered here per se, but I will offer my own insight on the subject.

1) You should consult with your client and explain that laminating is a lot like adding a spot varnish--color will shift in both cases. Because of all the variables involved with laminates (i.e. temperature, speed, mil, etc.), I don't know of a very reliable way to profile color for laminated substrate. I think it's best, therefore, to inform client up front and set expectations accordingly. Which leads me to...

2) Why laminate? Xerox offers a polyester substrate called NeverTear that is water- and grease-proof, has BETTER durability than laminated paper, and there is ZERO color shift. Faster time to market, one less step in finishing, and better quality all around. I think that's a win for everyone.

Hope this helps!
-d-

 

[viswanaathan_r]

Hi,

Thank you all for the valuable guidance. As suggested by the forum, we printed a swatch and half laminated. After a couple of iteration, we could get the color after lamination only near to the Pantone. This has been approved by the print buyer and I am printing the job now.

Appreciate the help from this community. Thanks once again.

 

[PAI]

The colors will shift with lamination. But you specified matte lamination. Matte lamination can be made several ways. The older method was to use a filled polymer. (usually PET) With filled polymer, they add matte particles to the to the polymer as it is being made. So the matte is in the polymer. Different manufacturers of the matte polymer may have different looks. Also since the matte is all the way through the film, filled polymers usually add a lot of haze. Since the matte is all the way through, the thicker the base film, the hazier it can get. The advantage is that filled films are scuff resistant.

Another method of creating matte films is a coated matte. It is basically your standard gloss laminate with a matte coating on the film. This is done when we produce the laminate film. We add a matte coating to the surface of the film. The advantage to this is that the matte can be the same for any type or thickness of laminate that you choose. The matte coating is put on in the same thickness / density for all types of film. This should give a more consistent look and more consistent color shift.

Many printers will have a small pouch type lamiantor and some sheets of matte film for proofing. That way you can match after lamination and see exactly what you will get.

Tony

 

[walterz]

Predicting Matte Lam results

Predicting Matte Lam results

Lukas mentions trying to create a print profile that defines the final matte laminated print results. Was that successful? Was it helpful?

Others like oldschool and PAI (Tony) allude to the many variables that could come into play (laminating temperature, speed, heat, variation in the plastic lam itself, etc) that would make such a profile ineffective. We were just considering making our own Matte Lam profile but would like to hear of pitfalls that we may encounter in doing so. Anyone willing to share their experiences with building and using a Matte Lam Press profile to produce proofs that better match the final laminated result - pros/cons/effectiveness?

Or could it be as simple as laminating the Epson proofs? (I have trouble believing that we would experience the same colour shifts on inkjet proofs as we do on litho printed sheets - different types of inks, different proportions (7c process vs 4c process), etc. (I'll run some tests of this today.)

 

[walterz]

Matte Lam Sim

Matte Lam Sim

Okay, summarizing the results of my testing yesterday would be that using an ICC profile (made from a matte laminated press sheet) will help simulate the colour shift that occurs from laminating. However one still has to deal with the sheen of the proof.
Matte laminating Epson proofs does apply the appropriate sheen but as I suspected it does not produce the same colour shift. All colours retained their hue, it was only the saturation that was affected.
So it seems that maybe the solution will need to be a combination of both, profile based alteration to simulate the colour shift and laminating the proof to show the correct sheen.
One other angle I will explore is proofing on a matte proofing stock. My suspicions are that the proof will not look as glossy (obviously) but it will still not appear the same as when matte laminated.

Walter