Command Workstation VS Xerox Freeflow

[PricelineNegotiator]

Good afternoon. First time poster, long time lurker here.

We are a smaller print company with a stable digital volume, but we are looking to expand into offering a web to print solution in the not-too-distant future. We are pretty set on Xerox and have figured their C75 will work best for our budget, volume, and customer demand. Our digital volume will increase dramatically in the next year, so a J75 or a Color Press 1000 (the Versant looks to be a test bed, not sure what to think of it) will be in our sights at that time.

With the C75 that we are going with, and the other presses later, we can pair that with a Fiery CWS workstation or a Xerox Freeflow workstation. We are interested in a web to print solution from both of those respective corporations - Digital Store Front from EFI or Storeflow from XMPie/Xerox. I want whichever DFE we get to interface with our W2P solution as well. I don't think this would be an issue.

Essentially, I am looking for reviews from those that have used both Command Workstation or Freeflow as their DFE. What are the main advantages over each program? If you have W2P software, have you run into any issues with these DFEs?

I'm sure someone here has been in my shoes once or currently is.

 

[Drewstre]

Hiya-
I've used the Fiery extensively on many different machines in my ~24 years of experience. I have about a year of hands-on with the FreeFlow DFE on a Xerox Color Press 1000. I can say without hesitation that I do NOT like the FreeFlow. Moving from a Fiery to the FreeFlow feels like moving from a nice BMW to an old pickup truck with no air conditioning.

Not to say the Fiery is perfect, but the FreeFlow is ridden with bugs that apparently cannot be fixed. Xerox came out and completely reloaded the entire DFE (twice in less than a year), made sure all the latest patches were applied, and it is still teeth-grindingly irritating to use. If you are using it to do one or two specific jobs over and over, it might be OK. But if you need any kind of diversity or calibration or job archiving or intuitive job options or imposition beyond the absolute basics, look elsewhere.

Another thing that kind of annoys me is that the FreeFlow box is a Unix box, and we had lots of issues incorporating it into our network. It also means that troubleshooting can be much more difficult for anyone who's not a Unix pro. For example, the stock Unix application used to preview PDFs simply will not open the _vast_ majority of PDFs I try. There's no Adobe Acrobat for Unix. There might be other, better PDF apps for Unix, but I dunno squeeze about Unix, and Xerox forbids you from installing any other software anyway. Command Workstation on a Mac or PC is a much more user-friendly atmosphere for most folks.

Color calibration is a joke (at least on my 1000 with FreeFlow, which did not have the Full Width Array).

Xerox sent out specialists, prattled on about how great it was, observed and acknowledged the bugs, wrote them all down in their notebooks, promised to find a resolution, then... nothing. I have absolutely nothing against Xerox; it's just FreeFlow I am not impressed with.

To be fair, the Fierys have their fair share of bugs as well, all software does. But they tend to be much less intrusive, easier to work around, and addressed far more quickly.

The print shop I worked at until a couple of months ago is also a small shop, maybe 40 employees (offset and digital). We were just dipping our toes in the W2P ocean, and from the various webinars and presentations we sat through trying to find the right solution, it appears that Fiery compatibility is better and more thoroughly fleshed out than integration with FreeFlow. I'd welcome any refutation of that, but that's the impression I got.

Regarding your future presses, the 1000 is a huge step up from a J75. The J75 is basically a Xerox 700 with better heavy stock capabilities. The 1000 is a beast of a machine, and I really like it. Registration is tight throughout runs of any size, color is pleasantly consistent, and the interface is pretty darn good. Just make sure you tick the option box for the Full Width Array.

Just to throw one more thing at you, when you look to expand, consider the Konica Minolta C8000. It has better print quality than any Xerox I've ever used, at the expense of being a bit more fragile. It does seem to go down more than the Xeroxes, but the quality is really great. We went to Xerox specifically to look at a J75. Spent a couple hours with it, I brought my standard suite of torture test files. We ended up buying a second KM C8000 instead.

Sorry for the rant, I hope I've helped a bit. Feel free to ask anything, I'll answer if I can.

Drewstre

 

[arossetti]

I will give another vote for fiery. What happens when in 5 years you want to switch from a Xerox printer to a Canon or KM? Your entire workflow needs to be rebuilt using a different DFE. Fiery allows you to grow into other modulars from MIS, W2P, Scheduling, Inventory, etc,etc.

I have freeflow and although I really like it as a DFE it is very limiting as a workflow solution.

 

[dpolglaze]

Hey, Folks,

Couple things on a reply here. First off the KM8000 is technically no longer available new, although there might be a few left over in someone's warehouse. Used or a demo unit can still be had; however. Anyone going with KM color at this level should also consider the new 1070 or 1085.

On the Fiery vs. Freeflow, these are totally and completely different animals, and meant for different needs and workflows--as Drewstre unfortunately found out the hard way! Freeflow cannot take the place of Fiery, and if your Xerox reps or techs say that, hand them their hats and tell them never to darken your doorway again.

I would go with DSF and the Fiery for W2P. They are integrated with each other and the support is very good. I implemented these at a popular Boston-based business school a few years ago. Although if you are coming down to your RIP with a PDF from your W2P system, a Creo will work just as well. I just like them better for lots of reasons. Price, ease of use and built-in color profiling and impositions being key. They also come with a monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Everyone needs to think about this when considering Xerox: their digital print business is shrinking on purpose. They are backing out of that part of their business to focus on managed services. They bought XMPie as part of that strategy. Also, Fuji actually make all of Xerox's print engines except one I believe.

Happy Printing!
Dwight

 

[arossetti]

Xerox builds the iGen and Nuvera series printers in Webster NY.

 

[Fred DeBolt]

To address the debate between Fiery and FFPS, I believe the solutions are equally powerful and the real difference is in user experience – the look and feel. Therefore, it’s a very personal decision. A visit to the nearest demo room for a test drive would be advisable before investing in any front-end or variable data workflow.

And just to set the record straight – Xerox is fully committed to the Graphic Communications industry. Our product developments underscore it, our investments underscore it and our executives underscore it every day when they meet with print and marketing service providers. We continue to invest in the high-growth areas of the industry including digital print technologies that reach the price points, image quality and flexibility associated with offset, and enablers of high-growth applications, such as data analytics and personalization, workflow automation, the cloud and mobile technologies.

In these initiatives, we are building upon a powerful legacy as the inventor of the xerographic technology - including inkjet - that is at the heart of today’s digital printing revolution. And we continue to listen to our client base – anticipating their needs that in turn inform our investment priorities.

- Fred DeBolt, VP, Cut Sheet Line of Business, Xerox

 

[MailGuru]

We use EFI Command Workstation. We have not used the Xerox Free-Flow, so, I can't really speak to their product, but, we did have Xerox's DocuSP RIP in the beginning. Did not like it one bit. On EFI's RIPS, through the CWS interface, you can select multiple jobs that are all alike in the Queu, and apply profile's to all jobs in the selection. Under Xerox's DocuSP (which, I assume is the underlying base for the Free-Flow), you can only affect ONE job at a time. Bummer!

Also, another consideration: Whatever you are going to, for production through-put, you're gonna want all your additional printers to have the same DFE. Too much of an awkward curve to switch gears between printers with different RIPs (i.e. if I'm sending to printer #1, my profile and setup on the RIP is THIS process -- if I'm sending to printer #2, my profile and setup on THAT RIP is a totally different process, etc.)

Also, I don't know if Xerox's Free-Flow does this, but, with EFI CWS on multiple printers, I can re-direct a job from one printer, to another, from the Command Workstation itself on the fly. Comes in real handy when we start a job on one printer, and, that printer goes down. I don't have to go back to pre-press and re-spool the job. From the RIP itself, I can simply send it to one of our other printers.

BTW, we love Xerox. All our color production presses are Xerox. We have no reason to believe they are backing out of the digital print business. If anything, they are "full-speed ahead". The new release of their revolutionary new Versant 2100 should show you they are not only committed to continue in that arena, they are committed to leading the pack.

Best

-MailGuru

 

[arossetti]

Under Xerox's DocuSP (which, I assume is the underlying base for the Free-Flow), you can only affect ONE job at a time. Bummer!

Correct, only 1 job at a time and it is a big time suck. You can always create a new queue if it is job specs that you do constantly but otherwise you have to program each individual job.

Also, another consideration: Whatever you are going to, for production through-put, you're gonna want all your additional printers to have the same DFE.

This is why in our operation we went with FreeFlow. I wish more black ink printers had fiery DFE's available. Seems like with black ink you are stuck with the manufacturer's front end. I have heard rumors of Fiery supporting the Nuvera line but it seems silly for them to invest in that with the current trends of b/w digital print.

 

[MailGuru]

Also, Fuji actually make all of Xerox's print engines except one I believe.

Happy Printing!
Dwight

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I'm pretty sure Fuji either owns Xerox, outright, or, they are at least the major stock-holder. Also, I doubt rather seriously if Xerox's acquisition of XMPie has anything to do with them backing out of digital print and getting more in to managed services. We use XMPie. Started with Objective Lune's Planet press, but, the high variable complexity of our variable image jobs kept chugging it down, so, we had to go to something more powerful and robust (XMPie), which, incidently, is the same reason we switched from Xerox's DocuSP to the Fiery's. They just churn through the RIP process faster.

Best

-MailGuru

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. I'm glad I joined this forum and posted.

From the replies posted so far, and my past experience, I am going to probably go with EFI for our DFE. We already run Xerox equipment and are invested in staying with Xerox for quite some time. Xerox definitely has most, if not all, of their chips on the digital production market, and we are a firm believer in digital's capabilities. EFI also has A LOT to offer from what I have seen. Printsmith and DSF offer a lot of automation, which is truly the future for printing (and any other industry for that matter).

I read a bit more on the Versant over the last couple of weeks and I'll definitely be checking it out at the Graph Expo at the end of the month.

Again, thanks for all the replies. More comments/evaluations are greatly welcome!

 

[Londen]

I cast my vote for EFI Fiery CWS also. At my work, we use both. CWS so much easier to use. The biggest complaint I have against FF, so far? You can't search for printed jobs.

 

[arossetti]

Searching on FF is a problem, our work around is every job starts with the job ticket number. We just sort by name and find the ticket number from our MIS.

 

[DYP]

I would love to here from anyone that is running Freeflow with the Versant 2100.

 

[Londen]

That's the problem. We serve a large department. It's hard to keep track of all the files/hard copies come through daily.

Can anyone answer these questions? On FF in the "Completed" job tab, why are some jobs with a green check mark and some don't? The ones that don't have a green check marks, we can't reprint them. Is there a way to "revive" these no green check mark jobs?

Thanks in advance.

Londen

Searching on FF is a problem, our work around is every job starts with the job ticket number. We just sort by name and find the ticket number from our MIS.

 

[Amy_G]

Hi all,

As I sit here typing this message, we currently have 2 Xerox engineers in the studio re-installing our FreeFlow (on our Xerox 1000) yet again! I've actually lost count of how many re-installs they've done, but I'm guessing we're on our 4th so far in 2 years. I wouldn't recommend FF to anyone wanting the ability to impose work - it's riddled with bugs. The problem the engineers are trying to solve at the moment is the FF rip can't seem to handle a simple data merge job of 100 business cards printed cut and stack - crop marks aren't printed correctly and half the print is missing on some. It's been a nightmare for us!! I've only had experience using the Creo before, but in comparison it was so much simpler and nicer to use.

Londen: I will ask the engineers about reprinting a job that doesn't have a green tick mark - might as well get some use out of them whilst they're here!

 

[Londen]

Amy,
Thanks for helping. Please post what you find out when you can.

Londen

Hi all,

As I sit here typing this message, we currently have 2 Xerox engineers in the studio re-installing our FreeFlow (on our Xerox 1000) yet again! I've actually lost count of how many re-installs they've done, but I'm guessing we're on our 4th so far in 2 years. I wouldn't recommend FF to anyone wanting the ability to impose work - it's riddled with bugs. The problem the engineers are trying to solve at the moment is the FF rip can't seem to handle a simple data merge job of 100 business cards printed cut and stack - crop marks aren't printed correctly and half the print is missing on some. It's been a nightmare for us!! I've only had experience using the Creo before, but in comparison it was so much simpler and nicer to use.

Londen: I will ask the engineers about reprinting a job that doesn't have a green tick mark - might as well get some use out of them whilst they're here!

 

[Amy_G]

Amy,
Thanks for helping. Please post what you find out when you can.

Londen

Hi Londen,

I'm afraid the engineers did what they do best - said they'd pose the question to someone else and come back to me with the answer! Just one question though, do you mean the green ticks in the 'PDL available' column? If so, they said the only reason that a job would not have a tick in that area would be if the job faulted and was canceled.

I will post again if they come back with anything solid to try!

 

[Londen]

Hi Londen,

I'm afraid the engineers did what they do best - said they'd pose the question to someone else and come back to me with the answer! Just one question though, do you mean the green ticks in the 'PDL available' column? If so, they said the only reason that a job would not have a tick in that area would be if the job faulted and was canceled.

I will post again if they come back with anything solid to try!

Hi Amy,
Yes, the PDL available column. It seems my "Completed" tab can hold only a certain numbres of completed job's PDLs. I was asked to reprinted a job we printed several months ago. We can find the job entry in the Completed tab and it was printed successfully. However, without PDL, we can't reprint it.

Thanks again.

Londen