CS6 PMS Values in CMYK vs CS5 PMS Values in CMYK

[Bill W]

Greetings,

I have seen similar, but no exactly the same, queries. Example, CMYK value for PMS 2587;
In CS5 they were c=59%, m=66%, yandk=0%
In CS6 2587 they are C=57.64%, m=83.15% yandk=0% when color settings is Prepress2
In CS6 change color settings to Emulate IL v6 and 2587 is now c=62.34%, m=73.91%, y=1.88%, k=0.26.

The fact that the color looks different on screen when opening a IL5 file that has PMS 2587 in CS6 compared to creating a new element in CS6 with PMS 2587, is somewhat concerning. But what could really cause a problem is if we created a new PMS 2587 item in CS6, converted it to CMYK and then expected it to match on press what we printed using a CS5 conversion in the past.

I realize that the solid coated library is now Pantone + and based on Lab values, a good thing. Other than changing the CMYK values after conversion to the CS5 values is there anyway to fix this potential "landmine" waiting to be stepped on at press.

 

[gordo]

Other than changing the CMYK values after conversion to the CS5 values is there anyway to fix this potential "landmine" waiting to be stepped on at press.

Become Pantone Certified? 8-P

(apologies. I couldn't resist)

Best, gordo

 

[leonardr]

I guess I am confused.

If you are working with Pantone colors, then you are doing so because you plan to actually print that specific ink. In which case, you don't care about the CMYK values.

If you are planning on printing entirely in CMYK (process), then why are you authoring with a Pantone?!?!!?

 

[chevalier]

The Pantone+ series made a "clean" break from the traditional Pantone series. CS6 is the first suite to get the Pantone+ built in. A lot of this change seems to have started with X-Rite bought Pantone. I wish they'd dump the thing and force everybody to use Goe.

Pantone does not give out information as to what the basis of these conversions is. It has been a major headache for us in packaging. I really wish they would just assign CIELAB addresses for their color system but I think financial motivations keep that from happening.

 

[chevalier]

I guess I am confused.

If you are working with Pantone colors, then you are doing so because you plan to actually print that specific ink. In which case, you don't care about the CMYK values.

If you are planning on printing entirely in CMYK (process), then why are you authoring with a Pantone?!?!!?

Because that is what graphic designers do. They design a document with 25 pantone inks and expect it to print on a 5 color press. It's a never ending headache in prepress.

 

[Bill W]

Because that is what graphic designers do. They design a document with 25 pantone inks and expect it to print on a 5 color press. It's a never ending headache in prepress.

More times than anyone would imagine!! Along with designing labels in Quark and InDesign, or sending what one thinks is a "print ready" PDF file.

 

[FlexoGrunt]

More times than anyone would imagine!! Along with designing labels in Quark and InDesign, or sending what one thinks is a "print ready" PDF file.

Or the people that send you a JPG and expect it to cost nothing on the prep side and print as 5 sport colors.

 

[David Milisock]

It may be that Adobe has now adopted the new LAB specification for converting to CMYK. This is a serious issue for the wide and grand format departments of printing companies.

 

[rich apollo]

I guess I am confused.

If you are working with Pantone colors, then you are doing so because you plan to actually print that specific ink. In which case, you don't care about the CMYK values.

If you are planning on printing entirely in CMYK (process), then why are you authoring with a Pantone?!?!!?

Leonard, it's common practice to use the Pantone libraries when laying out documents. It gives designers access to a large, pre-formulated pallet and the designers usually have no foreknowledge of how something will be produced. By using Pantone colors, the files can be more easily broken out into the appropriate separations.

Have the L*a*b* values changed? If you set Illustrator to use "Standard Lab values" and then do your own conversion to CMYK, how do the values fare?

The pre-baked CMYK values are problematic at best. Having the software packages default to the L*a*b* definitions of colors would go a long way toward removing this issue.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

It is mostly about source and destination. What is the exact Pantone library source? Is it L*a*b* based? Is it a hard-coded CMYK Bridge library etc? What about the destination? Will the final CMYK values be directly generated from the source table (Bridge CMYK) - or will the CMYK values be generated by the destination CMYK profile, CMM and Rendering Intent set in your Adobe Colour Settings from a L*a*b* based Pantone library?

I agree with Rich that the "historical standard" of selecting hard coded CMYK values for Pantone colours has never been ideal. All it did was perpetuate the fallacy that there were device independent CMYK values, when CMYK values are patently device dependent. This has lead to many colour reproduction problems with designers thinking that these CMYK based Pantone library colours were a fixed colour standard. If the end user uses a L*a*b* based library and has a good CMYK device profile describing their final print condition, then the colour match should be a lot better between the spot source and the process destination simulation.


Stephen Marsh

 

[leonardr]

I agree with Rich that the "historical standard" of selecting hard coded CMYK values for Pantone colours has never been ideal. All it did was perpetuate the fallacy that there were device independent CMYK values, when CMYK values are patently device dependent.

Correct. Pantone provides Adobe with a library that our applications use. That library includes both Lab as well as CMYK values for each of the provided colors. As the actual inks that Pantone produces changes, and as they improve their colorimetric measurements, those Lab & CMYK values change. It's OUT OF ADOBE'S CONTROL - we simply use the information that we are provided w/o any changes.

This has lead to many colour reproduction problems with designers thinking that these CMYK based Pantone library colours were a fixed colour standard. If the end user uses a L*a*b* based library and has a good CMYK device profile describing their final print condition, then the colour match should be a lot better between the spot source and the process destination simulation.

Also, which Adobe application is used will also determine if we choose Lab or CMYK alternatives. Illustrator still prefers the CMYK versions, while the rest of the Suite will use Lab. So depending on your authoring tool will determine which you get. And then if Lab is selected, then the CMYK values that you measure will depend on teh OutputIntent and/or simulation profile in the final PDF.

 

[leonardr]

Because that is what graphic designers do. They design a document with 25 pantone inks and expect it to print on a 5 color press. It's a never ending headache in prepress.

People also jump off bridges - but I'm not going to help them do it .

 

[David Milisock]

>is there anyway to fix this potential "landmine" waiting to be stepped on at press.

I've had a bit of time to experiment with this question and unfortunately I have not come up with any ways except to do a color replace in the resulting press ready PDF, rebuild in the older versions of the application or ecxlain it to the client.

Most of my output is now large format and we're seeing the same issue multipled by in some cases the multitude of spot color RIP conversions.

If you check out a post here from what may be an Adobe employee it makes one wonder what the hell Adobe was thinking, AI does one thing (as posted prefers CMYK) ID does another, WTF! No wonder printing profit margins are what they are.

 

[Paul Santer]

I found this information quite helpful

Pantone Plus color libraries

 

[David Milisock]

I believe the question in my mind is that when a file is exported as PDF or EPS where does the spot color to CMYK conversion information reside, in the PDF/EPS or with the hosting application?

If we have a CS6 ID file with objects placed into it that are Pantone 286 created in Ai 8, 9, 10, CS5, CorelDRAW X5, X6, what controls the conversion to CMYK? Will they all convert to the same CMYK build?

 

[chevalier]

It is mostly about source and destination.

Stephen, you nailed this on the head.

Unfortunately, brand managers/creatives/designers are poorly educated or just don't understand the concept of device dependent and independent. I'm constantly being dictated CMYK "Pantone equivalent" values from a bridge book, label printer, other printer, etc. Customers think CMYK values should be the same to produce the same color despite process differences and substrate differences. This gets even more insane when you start screening Pantone or other library colors without calibration data then start intersecting them. The results are sometimes wild variances printer to printer and proofer to proofer.

Fortunately, scanners (color-metric devices) as well as proofer and press feedback are quickly technologically advancing and allowing this to become more predictable. But man is it a near daily headache!

 

[David Milisock]

>But man is it a near daily headache!
We get the guy who read the book and wants to late bind from RGB. Then wonders why! There is enough variation from a properly built file in CMYK or when you actually print a spot color let alone relying on a conversion from a wide gamut like Adobe RGB to different media and press profiles.

 

[leonardr]

I believe the question in my mind is that when a file is exported as PDF or EPS where does the spot color to CMYK conversion information reside, in the PDF/EPS or with the hosting application?

Both PDF and EPS/PS have a concept called an "alternate colorspace". For spot colors (technically, the Separation colorspace), an alternate is provided for when the viewer does not have the original present. The obvious example being Adobe Reader, which knows NOTHING about Pantone inks - so it uses the alternate when it renders the color on screen.

So in the case of choosing a Pantone swatch in AI/ID and then doing File->Save as/Export to PDF, the value for the alternate is provided by Pantone as part of their libraries. It's just data in->data out for Adobe. The only choice we make is that AI will always obtain the CMYK-based alternates from the Pantone libraries while ID obtains the Lab-based ones.

If we have a CS6 ID file with objects placed into it that are Pantone 286 created in Ai 8, 9, 10, CS5, CorelDRAW X5, X6, what controls the conversion to CMYK? Will they all convert to the same CMYK build?

There is NO CONVERSION to CMYK taking place in InDesign or in Acrobat/Reader. (unless you explicitly run something like a Color Convert operation in Acrobat).

The alternates that were placed into those original PDF/EPS files will be maintained when exported - no conversion.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I believe the question in my mind is that when a file is exported as PDF or EPS where does the spot color to CMYK conversion information reside, in the PDF/EPS or with the hosting application?

In the case of a proofing RIP, there will be a resident look up table for Pantone colours. This table would either be device independent L*a*b* based, or perhaps in the proofer device space CMYK values for the stock/resolution in use. There may then be a further option to ignore the RIP based lookup table and to use the "alternate colour space" found in the file. Generally one would not elect to use the alternate colours found in the file and they would use the RIP based library instead.

Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

If we have a CS6 ID file with objects placed into it that are Pantone 286 created in Ai 8, 9, 10, CS5, CorelDRAW X5, X6, what controls the conversion to CMYK? Will they all convert to the same CMYK build?

This is a complex question (and complex to answer), as it involves spot colour behaviour in InDesign and it also touches upon where/how a CMYK conversion may be created from the spot colours.

I believe that "InDesign Best Practice" is to pre-populate InDesign with all L*a*b* spot colours before importing any spot colour vector or raster link. Of course, all spots from all programs should have the exact same spelling, otherwise spot colours will need to be remapped or aliased to a single spot colour. This is perhaps not ideal or real world, as many folk would start with no spot colours in their layout, then when they link to spot colour files the spot colours would then be imported into InDesign.

Anyway, the final spot composite alternate colour of say a PDF exported out of InDesign should be whatever build the first colour in the colour palette contained... If the colour was in the palette before importing graphics, that would be the colour model and alternate colour build. If there was no spot in the colour list, then the very first imported graphic would populate the colour list with the spot colour model and build. All further images with the same spot colour would then use the first colour populated in the list as the final build of say an exported PDF. On screen in InDesign, two different files using the same spot colour value may have two different composite colour appearances/builds, however they will both output to the same separation and the final PDF export from InDesign will have the colour model and build of the first spot colour to be created/imported into InDesign.

EDIT: Colour conversion to CMYK depends on the application in question, InDesign during export, Acrobat, a proofing or wide format RIP etc. Refer to my previous post for how many proofing RIPs handle this task.


Stephen Marsh