Digital Booklets - Inline or Offline

[csudman]

We do a decent amount of color Booklets. 3-10k per month and that number is increasing. Mostly 8.5x11 finished, sometimes with full bleed.

If you were buying a new machine today. And weighing inline vs offline finishing, which would you choose? We are 95% digital, so I "think" we need a air assited booklet maker? Or will friction feed work ok?

I would like to buy used as it seems likes theres alot of good deals out there for 5-10k.

I would assume the benifits that would be gained by precutting the sheets for bleeds would save a consider amount of bindery time.

Thanks
CJ

 

[Al Ferrari]

The old school view

The old school view

For a traditional quality finish it is best to fold individual sheets separately off line, gather the signatures, stitch and then trim 3 sides. More time consuming, yes, but this method of production yields a quality product.

The product produced on line could include stitching and 3 side trimming, but will be of lower quality because multiple sheets can never be folded as tightly as single sheets.

Al

 

[csudman]

For a traditional quality finish it is best to fold individual sheets separately off line, gather the signatures, stitch and then trim 3 sides. More time consuming, yes, but this method of production yields a quality product.

The product produced on line could include stitching and 3 side trimming, but will be of lower quality because multiple sheets can never be folded as tightly as single sheets.

Al

Well, we are not going to be gearing up to do fold, collate, stitch. I'm thinking 1-2 tower collator/stitcher/trimmer.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Well, we are not going to be gearing up to do fold, collate, stitch. I'm thinking 1-2 tower collator/stitcher/trimmer.

Well that's fine. You know best how to serve your customers. But "booklets" usually means two or more folded sheets inserted and stitched at the spine. Where is the folding getting done in your future set up?

Al

 

[csudman]

Booklet maker IM talking about with fold sets then stitch.

 

[OkiTech]

Hi. It is surely a lot more convenient to have in-line bookletmaking. We had a Ricoh Aficio 9000 with Plockmatick bookletmaker in-line. Beautiful set-up, all that operator had to do is load paper and unload ready booklet. Now when we had upgraded to Ricoh MP-9000 I was unable to do the same hook up and we saddle-stitch offline.
If you go with In-line finishing (being said that you have some full bleed jobs) your system must be able to trim top and bottom (I saw duplo system capable of that) which will save you a lot of time and effort but will cut your ability to produce jobs printed elsewhere (say if anyone will ask you saddle stitch the job he had printed somewhere else. I mean, I am sure the system should have a by-pass tray but you will not have a collator...
Also you said that amount of your orders are increasing... how about quantity of runs? Say someday you will find yourself in situation where adding an offset or DI press will be sense-making a system with Collator will be a better choice but keep in mind - this is from experience - all air fed systems - collators, folders, etc are quiet unhappy to feed laser printed stock due to paper being distorted from fuser heat (paper out of laser copier will newer lay flat at least not as out of offset press)
To sum things up - if stitching out of you digital copier/printer is the only thing you're planning on doing - in-line finishing is better, simpler, efficient.
If you plan on growing to add an offset and may be in need to handle outside jobs than offline system is more universal.
If you go with off-line stitching system, friction fed will handle uncoated stocks mostly but will cost significantly less where air fed systems can handle glossy and coated stocks but priced a lot higher...

 

[csudman]

Their is no inline that I am aware of/can afford that can do a 3 side book trim. My goal would be to print uncollated sigs. Then using a tower collater/folder/end trimmer combo, create booklets.

I just envision this being cheaper for 2 reasons.

1. We do some 1/2 size booklets now that cost twice as much to create inline because of the clicks.
2. When creating booklets that bleed, I can but the sigs before collating/folding/stitching and save tons of time vs booklet trimming after printing.

 

[OkiTech]

Hi, you right - if you on "per click" contract this is most efficient way. But I've got to tell you - when I had in-line hook up, system had a cover feeder so printing full color cover, B/W inside was awesome - there is nothing like having the right set-up for the right job, but I think having a regular off line collate/stitch/trim system will serve you really well.

 

[JayDA]

After screwing around with various inline booklet makers, we've just invested in an offline solution. The amount of options available to me now far exceed what I could do inline. I still run my fair share of books on lighter weight stock with my inline finishers, but anything with a separate cover or on heavier stock goes offline.

 

[arossetti]

Well that's fine. You know best how to serve your customers. But "booklets" usually means two or more folded sheets inserted and stitched at the spine. Where is the folding getting done in your future set up?

Al

I'm not 100% sure since I do not own the equipment but during a demo of a c6501 with the booklet making (and I'm sure this would still be true for the newer KM boxes) the booklet maker folds each signature before collating and stapling. Maybe a KM user can confirm this. We use the basic finisher with booklet maker on 2 of our digital boxes however we also use a horizon offline stitch fold trim system. Depends on the turnaround, quantity and size of the book.

 

[JayDA]

I'm not 100% sure since I do not own the equipment but during a demo of a c6501 with the booklet making (and I'm sure this would still be true for the newer KM boxes) the booklet maker folds each signature before collating and stapling. Maybe a KM user can confirm this. We use the basic finisher with booklet maker on 2 of our digital boxes however we also use a horizon offline stitch fold trim system. Depends on the turnaround, quantity and size of the book.

6500/6501 Will staple the sheets flat, and then fold....

 

[arossetti]

6500/6501 Will staple the sheets flat, and then fold....

Well the salesman talked a good game, as they do.

 

[printchesco]

Since you lean towards high productivity or high volume of jobs, then you are better suited for offline finishing.

 

[canufinishit]

There are various options for bookletmakers/saddlestichers for a digital device or multiple devices. I am of the opinion that an in-line bookletmaker is best when all you have is one machine dedicated to doing just that. If you have multiple digital devices, an off-line or near-line system works best. An example of an off-line system would be an air feed collator, bookletmaker, and face trimmer. These are manufactured by different companies and range from a simple to complex. A near-line system would consist of a sheetfeeder, bookletmaker and a face trimmer. Again these machines are made by the same manufacturers. You also have the collator/sheetfeeder/saddlestitcher/3-knife trimmer which is a system that will give you a high quality look due to the ability to score and plowfold the the set and stitch without stitch to fold movement plus the 3-knife trim which would give a digital booklet a full bleed finish. BTW in order to make things even more fun, you can add a sheet feeder to all of the collator based systems for the highest amount of flexibility.
How to choose??? Know what your finished products are and where they will come from to determine which type of bookletmaker/saddlestitcher you will need. The more variety of machine where printfinishing of booklets are required, the more flexibility you need. Example: Half size press, a quarter size press, Indigo 5500, Xerox Nuevera. What to use??? a collator, sheetfeeder, bookletmaker or saddlestitcher and a face or 3-knife trimmer. All depends on your budget.

 

[jdiggy]

Duplo 5000 system. Expensive, but modular, so add as you can afford. Will give you the best quality and efficiency for digital workflow. I run 2 Xerox color machines and the Duplo is fast enough to handle many more digital machines or offset for that matter. Take a lookie....

 

[JayDA]

Duplo 5000 system. Expensive, but modular, so add as you can afford. Will give you the best quality and efficiency for digital workflow. I run 2 Xerox color machines and the Duplo is fast enough to handle many more digital machines or offset for that matter. Take a lookie....

That's what I'm running, the 5000 system with the separate cover feeder, and the slitter/creaser inline. We've had it about 3 months, and absolutely LOVING it so far, it really chews through the work.

 

[fourpaula]

We do a lot of booklets that are 8.5X5.5 finish size. We choose to do off line binding because we can print the booklets 2 up & have 1/2 the click charges. We do also have an inline stitcher on our CPP 650 but it is so slow we can print & stitch the entire job off line 10 times faster than if we use the inline. Inline is handy when your do small runs but off line is SO much better for us if we do lung runs.

 

[CSimpson]

That's what I'm running, the 5000 system with the separate cover feeder, and the slitter/creaser inline. We've had it about 3 months, and absolutely LOVING it so far, it really chews through the work.

What type of volume are you running? I have the same system and I hate it, tons of service issues. I am wondering if it is a volume issue or a lemon issue. For the record, I am running between 30,000 to 50,000 books per month.

Also if you run a job on gloss text with full coverage (colored background) digitally it destroys the book when it tries to fold it. This is due to the sheets being too slick and the way the machine folds. Have you encountered this problem?

 

[JayDA]

What type of volume are you running? I have the same system and I hate it, tons of service issues. I am wondering if it is a volume issue or a lemon issue. For the record, I am running between 30,000 to 50,000 books per month.

Also if you run a job on gloss text with full coverage (colored background) digitally it destroys the book when it tries to fold it. This is due to the sheets being too slick and the way the machine folds. Have you encountered this problem?

I'm probably running 70-80k a month, most of which is 3-4 page 12x18 brochures on 80lb gloss cover with heavy coverage. I haven't seen any service at all really, other then a freak issue with a cracked shaft right out of the crate. I haven't seen the issue you're describing , but to be fair, I've probably only done 2 or 3 runs so far involving gloss text.

Duplo is selling this thing as a machine that is easy to "program", like the computer will just magically make everything all better. Well...it won't, I'm fortunate to have an AMAZING tech from Duplo who really trained my operators well. It still takes quite a bit of tinkering and mechanical "intuition" to get every run perfect.

 

[CSimpson]

The cracked shaft wasn't a handle shaft of the digital feeder was it? If so, better stock up, I have replaced all three of them a bunch of times. I have had the machine for right at 2 years.

Here is the list of problems I have been dealing with:
Cracked shafts on the handles of the DSF-5000
Computer Fried, now running on a desktop PC.
Exceeding down tray limit error. This they have never been able to fix. Requires a reboot of the Duplo and a reconnect on the PC.
Screws falling out the machine all over due to vibration.
Feed belts wear very fast in the DSF-5000, which causes them to jump their feed track.
Plus the tech I have isn't as johnny on the spot as he needs to me. That is not the machine fault, but it just makes everything else I am having trouble with worse.