Do Printers Still Need Service from their Ink Supplier ? ?

[gordo]

Maybe approach this from a different angle.
D ink man, could you list the criteria that printers should use to evaluate the performance of a prospective vendor's ink technicians? Or even the vendor itself?

Best, gordo

 

[D Ink Man]

So Gordo,

A highly trained and qualified ink technician that totally satisfies each of his customers with unflappable proactive and reactive servicing would be a gem to the industry? Then say that same technician takes that information, properly reports on it and disseminates it to his group of technical warriors for a database library. Is this close to your thoughts of being totally useful and a Technical Servient that is approaching immortality?

Thank you in advance for your reply. Just a student of the game trying to learn. All the best.

D

 

[D Ink Man]

Try these for starters Gordo,

1) Did the technician solve my immediate problem that was causing our operation to jam/ lose iph.
2) Does the technician make regular proactive visits to learn about every press, every consumable I am using and to interact with every employee for useful exchange
3) Does my technician provide educational knowledges to my press crews based on his positive observations in the working field.
4) Does my technician respond and visit my facility with same day service, to provide input, whether it is an ink problem or not.
5) Does my technician crawl out of bed at 3:00 am on a Sunday morning to fix an issue that I am having.
6) Does my technician share all his skills without concealing information because of what's happening at another shop, (non-political).
7) Does my technician enjoy his job and providing service without it being a burden.
8) Does my technician go to the bench with hands on work to reformulate or modify products that I am having issues with.
9) Does my technician follow up and report to me of results that I need to know.
10) Does my technician suggest and participate in group meetings with all my consumable suppliers to help my operation improve and maximize its efficiency.

I can go on............

D

 

[gordo]

@d ink man

Thanks for those 10 points. However, they are for evaluating an existing vendor/ink technician relationship - I asked for criteria for a "prospective" supplier. I guess I can go through your list and rephrase the points accordingly.

And yes, I think that a company that has an internal database based on field experience that is available to all field service technicians is a good idea. It would reduce much of the expensive experimentation that the print shop ends up having to do as the field tech guesses their way through a problem or formulates for a specific need. Two examples where I saw the expense and frustration with the lack of data basing and sharing information among field ink techs was with the implementation of FM screening and spot color replacement systems. Both are pretty basic in their requirements regarding ink formulation - I.e. they're not exotic or obscure applications - but they really showed me how costly the lack of shared information can be.

BTW Thanks for participating in this forum. I think you're the only ink vendor to do so. It's appreciated.

Best, gordo

 

[D Ink Man]

Thank you Gordo for the kind words, truly.

As far as prospective ink suppliers, that could be an ink company that would be interested in increasing their business by replacing the incumbent at John Doe Litho.
The reason I state this is because there are ZERO ink companies, to the best of my knowledge, that are providing these kind of services that were mentioned in the 10 point example. Before 1990 almost all ink companies provided these services and that was the main vehicle for competition. Sure, you still had to have an excellent (non-consolidated) and consistent batch to batch product.
Coincidentally (honestly I know it is not a coincidence) at that time the ink companies enjoyed thier highest levels of profitabilty. The labs were full of qualified people, the mills were running, the phones were ringing and the technicians were singing.
Then came the onslaught of acquisitions where the industry giants gobbled up the smaller and middle size ink companies. They bought their sales business, but either forgot, never knew or neglected why these smaller companies were successful. So they got what they wanted and created a state of commodity sales that in my opinion and that of many that are wiser, ruined the entire industry.
Please let me acknowledge and understand the diminishing of ink on paper factor, mostly because of this retangular box setting next to me. However in my vision, that should create even more opportunity for the ink companies to once again become profitable by customer service and particulary technical prowess.
Cheap raw materials, trimming transportation costs and slashing your work force to the point of bare bones is not the answer. I believe the upper echelon of the ink industry will eventually realize this and begin to put their focus on what once made the industy great. D

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

This is how I see it, Presses today have become so automated to the point that operators are not learning back to basics troubleshooting techniques anymore. Having this type of automation is great and is needed because of the very competitive world we live in today. But I feel it has a price to pay where the operators sometimes dont really know the difference between tinting and scumming, dot gain caused by too much ink or emulsified ink, colour variation caused by overcontrol or ink/water. The ink technicians I have had the privalege to work with over the years have a real world understanding of the process gained by paying their dues on the front lines of press troubleshooting usually with an irrate press manager and a poorly trained crew looking over their shoulder. They have to be very diplomatic in the face of ignorance and denial and never point fingers at the crew or other suppliers. Maybe I was just lucky to have worked with ink companies that have provided me with excellent ink technicians. If I was in the market to switch ink suppliers technical support would be very high on my list of requirements.
My opinion folks

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

Keep pining away for the good old days and see what that gets you... At one time 6 local ink companies, some with good service and some without, now only two have a local office and only one of them has mixing services. Tell the ink companies that have gone out of business that the reason they had to close up was they did not have enough tech's or maintain a database. You cannot just look at it through the eyes of a technical sales person, you have to also look at the economies of it and understand things have fundamentally changed in this business...

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

I dont pine for the old days, I still work in this industry so my comments are about today not yesterday. I dont care how many ink companies have gone out of business or plate companies or fountain solution companies. I firmly believe that any company that backs up their product with solid technical representation will at least have a fighting chance of surviving even though the game has changed.

 

[D Ink Man]

TheProcessISthe product; For you, based on your replies I would recommend buying the cheapest ink you can get your hands on. You will accomplish at least two things.

You will please the bean counter accountant who looks only at price of the consumables that are bought for your shop. Your leg work to find that cheapie may even garner you a pay increase! Heck, I know one company that will practically give their ink away for FREE, if you agree in contract to put an ink dispenser on your floor for spot colors with a multi year agreement. Don't moan on Friday night however, when it spews out pMS 468 tint tan and the shade is 100 miles from nowhere. Another way might even be able to cut your staff or their pay to make you even more of a shining knight.

The second thing to expect is all or most of the responsibility for the efficiency of your operation to fall on your shoulders. When the i.p.h. start to decline, jobs are finished late (because of inks that don't DRY-they may SET, they don't DRY or poor print characteristics for examples) and you have no support or something eludes your wisdom, please remember my efforts here that warned you.

I have found, in real situations, that shops that operate in the manner just described, soon find themselves boarded up with plywood covering where there once was windows. Gone!!!!!!!!!

So trepidate carefully my friend. Just a little advice.

D

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

I thought this was an academic discussion about ink companies service levels, but if you want to talk about my personal ink usage; I ran Toyo for a long time, because at the time it was supposed to be the best product on the market, it was way more expensive and I had local support. Guess what, the ink and support sucked, every can, even from the same lot, was completely different in tack, body, and color... Now I am running INX, not the most expensive, but not the cheapest either, it runs consistent, dries good, and I have been happy for about 3 years. If someone drops off some free ink I may test it, but it would really have to nock my socks of to want to switch. I do not get hung up on price alone, you have to look at price, usage, waste, runnability, consistency and sometimes that does not mean the cheapest ink checks all the boxes.

 

[D Ink Man]

Nice reply sir. And I'll still say this is an academic discussion. It is the sharing of experiences and developing mindsets that help each and everyone of us be as efficient and profitable in our contemporary climate. Thank you.

 

[printsnpaints]

I agree with Cornishpastythighs and gordo. When you say they're a qualified, experience ink technicians, their knowledge still varies based on how much experience they have regarding your concern. Their service is always appreciated since it saves you the trouble of figuring out the ever-so confusing world of printer technicalities.

 

[D Ink Man]

So as the experienced and qualified technicians are dwindled down, this service becomes an even more valuable entity for the printers that can be fortunate enough to have a relationship with the ones that still exist. Agree?

And truly, it is a shame that the ink suppliers have focused their energies away from the development of technical field people and also reduced their work force of some highly experienced techs that solve problems.

The ever loving dollar and trying to be competitive mainly by selling price has eroded the ink industry and the potential maximized profits. But the fellows that are in charge don't care. They have lost vision if they ever had any and have jumped into the Walmart type of pricing mindset. Heck, they are more likely to slap a smiley face sticker on your shirt than provide the printer with a technical person. And you can bet these ink leaders aren't shopping at Walmart. Their palms are greased and they are fat and happy. It can be summed up in one word. It is not survival, it is GREED. D

 

[TheProcessIStheproduct]

I think you are missing one thing, has the ink industry not made any advancements in the past 20 years? Does ink run faster, more consistent, dry better, etc? If the answer is yes and the industry has contracted, then it is only natural to think ink companies have less need of field techs, right??? I know I personally do not have the ink problems today that I did even 10 years ago...

 

[D Ink Man]

I think you are missing one thing, has the ink industry not made any advancements in the past 20 years? Does ink run faster, more consistent, dry better, etc? If the answer is yes and the industry has contracted, then it is only natural to think ink companies have less need of field techs, right??? I know I personally do not have the ink problems today that I did even 10 years ago...

The advancements the ink companies have made are minute, trust me. It is not like the formulas have changed to new space age raw materials that perform better. If anything steps have gone backwards because the ink offerings have been reduced because of consolidated product lines and much more of a reluctance to customize to fit.

As far as having less 'ink' problems, I have to question that as being due to 'ink'. If we are talking about litho, please remember we are dealing with a process that contains hundreds of factors and variables. Your less problem claim, is due to an overall improvement in all the consumables used in the process, as well as improved press designs that have turned previous experienced craftsmen into more of a generation of button pushers. This is my take, and one thing that I can promise you TheProcessIStheproduct, you will run into problems, issues and situations where you will need support. You will not always be able to figure it out by yourself or within the personnel on your production floor. This is why partnering with an ink technical person, who sees many more issues then you do, becomes invaluable when problems arise. And again, they will. Time will prove that. D

 

[Green Printer]

When products are made consistent batch to batch along with a properly trained press crew you rarely ever need a technician.
Twenty years ago the ink was so crappy from batch to batch you needed the technician to come to see how bad the product was and how was he going to fix it. Over the years I have rejected over 75 sets of process colors because of variations. The techs always gave me some BS story. I told them if you made it right you wouldn't need to be here.
Ink drying problem instance the ink and paper company took the usual samples ink press sheets etc, all densities water pickup and all of the normal test checked out ok. The answer we got was we put too much ink on the paper. The real problem was the paper company had changed their coating formula which now included some styrenated starches. After about 6 months the paper company finally admitted the coating change and they had troubles with drying all over the country. What I learned from this and many other instances is you usually get lied too about the real problem and there is no testicular fortitude to own up to the problem. So I have a very bad taste for most technicians and there abilities.

 

[D Ink Man]

Fact> Ink is less consistent today than it was 10-20-30.... years ago. Why? There are less people doing less quality control/assurance checks than previously. Raw materials are not being checked like they once were. The reliance on Certificates of Analysis from the raw material supplier, single page, mostly irrelevant data filled in have replaced the hands on thorough checking once done by ink company quality control staffs. Random spot checks have replaced the tedious chores that were once done.

As far as the bad taste in your mouth, your ink supplier may be employing a fledling individual that delivers inexperienced lip service rather than true helpful Technical Service. Does your guy wear long sleeves or a tie? That's a sure sign of a potential lack of ability and non result oriented. Your taste would be changed if you ever encountered a good technical person. Unfortunately, they are becoming quite rare, as your reply Green Printer has clearly indicated. D

 

[Green Printer]

D Ink Man we have not had an ink tech in here for over 6 years. If they have a suit and tie they don't get pass the front door. I will ask them a few questions if they can't answer them they don't past the front door.
We do let some suits come in that are paying for ink test and evaluation studies.

 

[D Ink Man]

Green Printer, who is your ink supplier and what brand name inks do you use, if I may ask?

 

[Kaoticor]

I agree with several statements to a certain degree An ink technician who wont give you a bogus excuse and try to blame the problem on something else and who actually knows what he is talking about is very rare nowadays.
But I don't feel I have problems with ink variation like I used to... Although, you have to realize that we measure and put color to standards like never before. It seems like it was only a few years ago I remember the old spot densitometers being the authority for color! No one knew the first thing about all the different variables that can affect color!