DURST ink adhesion

[Justform]

Anyone having issues with ink adhesion with DURST P5 HS350?
Currently running "Rho Universal LED-curable pigment ink" (per Durst's recommendation), but on some substrates the ink does not adhere (despite fully curing) and can be peeled off, or will begin to flake off. Has anyone else had similar experiences?
I have 3 other Durst machines in the facility (recent purchases) and have experienced ink adhesion issues on those also, so not the best start/introduction to Durst printing!
Any input would be appreciated! Naturally we have tried the obvious, ink adhesion promotor sprays, ensuring settings are correct for substrates etc.

 

[jmitt]

What substrates are you having issues with? We had a P5 350 running DRU-LED at my previous job and had good results with a variety of substrates except acrylics and polycarbonates. Durst recommends using an adhesion promoter or digital grade sheets for those. Also are you running white ink? Durst's white ink for the P5 series adheres well to acrylic & polycarbonates so when doing a white under print on those substrates we had no issues. We only saw adhesion issues when CMYKcm inks were printed directly to acrylic or polycarbonate. We run the DRU inkset (non LED version) in multiple printers at my current job and have no issues but we print primarily on roll substrates, not acrylic/polycarb.

I'd recommend reaching out to Mark Ellingsworth at Durst if you haven't already done so. He's the applications manager and is your best resource for ink adhesion questions.

 

[Justform]

We have been having issues with polycarbonates admittedly, but also reflective alum. More especially yellow reflective AEGP vinyl on alum sheet (these are supposed digital grade sheets). We do run white ink, i had never heard of the idea of underlaying the white to achieve better ink adhesion, this may be something we could look at, however this obviously increases production costs significantly. One of the attractions to the Durst P5 was it's ability to run with less costly ink, unfortunately those results seem to be evading us at the moment!

 

[Owner P5]

Anyone having issues with ink adhesion with DURST P5 HS350?
Currently running "Rho Universal LED-curable pigment ink" (per Durst's recommendation), but on some substrates the ink does not adhere (despite fully curing) and can be peeled off, or will begin to flake off. Has anyone else had similar experiences?
I have 3 other Durst machines in the facility (recent purchases) and have experienced ink adhesion issues on those also, so not the best start/introduction to Durst printing!
Any input would be appreciated! Naturally we have tried the obvious, ink adhesion promotor sprays, ensuring settings are correct for substrates etc.

Just saw your post about ink adhesion. We purchased our P5 several years ago, unknowingly when they first came out. We wound up with the 2nd one in the US (per tech's info, not anyone in sales or tech service). They were in here for a full year, I can't tell you how many times trying to get the bugs worked out. Finally after 1 year, it started functioning close to what was claimed when we purchased it. I felt comfortable and fair by withholding the last 10% as compensation for our years worth of issues. I was flat told if I didn't pay, Durst would not sell me ink or support the machine. They could have cared less that I was their Guinea Pig. So, I paid and the machine ran good for about a year then signs started sticking together as the ink was not cured. Lost thousands of dollars of product we had to reprint and Durst offered us nothing. For several months we had to spray a light coat of silicone spray over the ink so it would not block. Finally, last August they came in and changed the inkset. Now we are experiencing call backs because the ink is now falling of some of the signs. Not really serious now but trying to get ahead of it. Tested our plastic and at 40 Dyne or above. Sent plastic to Durst they got same results. Now they are wanting us to do a "call ticket" ($250/hr) to try to fix their problem then if they can't do it over the internet/phone then it goes to a tech call and it's like $1,700 to walk thru the door, some ridicoulous hourly rate, and travel time. Probably in the $4 - $5,000 range and no guarantee they can fix.
Bottom line, I thought I was buying a Rolls Royce and wound up with a Hugo. I could have bought 3 HP's and thrown them away after 3 - 5 years and still been better off. These guys have no idea what customer service is or could care. They will not give out other client's names and I can absolutely see why. Their claim is "no one else is having issues". Just like they told us when we bought this thing when in fact, everyone that was being installed at the time would not work right. The last thing I heard was the very first P5 that landed in Texas was taken out of service because the owners lucked out, it got wet in a storm and their insurance paid it off. That's what a Durst tec told us.
I can't believe there will ever be a scenario that I would even think about buying anything Durst or associated with Global. Good Luck.
BTW - We print exclusively on fluted polypropylene.

 

[PrinterB]

Just saw your post about ink adhesion. We purchased our P5 several years ago, unknowingly when they first came out. We wound up with the 2nd one in the US (per tech's info, not anyone in sales or tech service). They were in here for a full year, I can't tell you how many times trying to get the bugs worked out. Finally after 1 year, it started functioning close to what was claimed when we purchased it. I felt comfortable and fair by withholding the last 10% as compensation for our years worth of issues. I was flat told if I didn't pay, Durst would not sell me ink or support the machine. They could have cared less that I was their Guinea Pig. So, I paid and the machine ran good for about a year then signs started sticking together as the ink was not cured. Lost thousands of dollars of product we had to reprint and Durst offered us nothing. For several months we had to spray a light coat of silicone spray over the ink so it would not block. Finally, last August they came in and changed the inkset. Now we are experiencing call backs because the ink is now falling of some of the signs. Not really serious now but trying to get ahead of it. Tested our plastic and at 40 Dyne or above. Sent plastic to Durst they got same results. Now they are wanting us to do a "call ticket" ($250/hr) to try to fix their problem then if they can't do it over the internet/phone then it goes to a tech call and it's like $1,700 to walk thru the door, some ridicoulous hourly rate, and travel time. Probably in the $4 - $5,000 range and no guarantee they can fix.
Bottom line, I thought I was buying a Rolls Royce and wound up with a Hugo. I could have bought 3 HP's and thrown them away after 3 - 5 years and still been better off. These guys have no idea what customer service is or could care. They will not give out other client's names and I can absolutely see why. Their claim is "no one else is having issues". Just like they told us when we bought this thing when in fact, everyone that was being installed at the time would not work right. The last thing I heard was the very first P5 that landed in Texas was taken out of service because the owners lucked out, it got wet in a storm and their insurance paid it off. That's what a Durst tec told us.
I can't believe there will ever be a scenario that I would even think about buying anything Durst or associated with Global. Good Luck.
BTW - We print exclusively on fluted polypropylene.

Ink adhesion is a function of the substrate and the UV ink and not the printer. When the substrate has a low surface energy, you will 100% experience poor UV ink adhesion. To solve this, you must pre-treat the substrate with chemical adhesion promoters or mechanical pre-treatment systems. Note that different substrates will require different adhesion promoters. For polypropylene, use the PP Primer, for glass, tiles and ceramics use the G1 Adhesion promoter, and for all metals (Coated and Uncoated) use the M87 or the M74F Adhesion promoter for metals.

 

[Justform]

Anyone having issues with ink adhesion with DURST P5 HS350?
Currently running "Rho Universal LED-curable pigment ink" (per Durst's recommendation), but on some substrates the ink does not adhere (despite fully curing) and can be peeled off, or will begin to flake off. Has anyone else had similar experiences?
I have 3 other Durst machines in the facility (recent purchases) and have experienced ink adhesion issues on those also, so not the best start/introduction to Durst printing!
Any input would be appreciated! Naturally we have tried the obvious, ink adhesion promotor sprays, ensuring settings are correct for substrates etc.

SO.....We have resolved the issue we had with ink adhesion issues by changing our ink from the 'basic' ink type to the "LED roller" ink style.
However, since doing this (which involved the machine going down for couple of days) we now seem to have issues with predominantly the white ink leaking/seeping from the head during idle/standby. Not sure if the change of ink is the cause for this, or the fact Durst carried out a OS update on the unit (when they installed our second P5 unit which had the latest software already installed).
Due to the P5 being a relatively 'newer' released model I am unable to source much technical info with regards to anything on them. Even Durst tech said they are still learning this model as they work on it! Anyone else know of or experiencing similar?