Eco-Solvent vs Latex vs Aqueous Canvas Printing

[NathanD]

Looking for some recommendations on new equipment to replace our old process:

We do fine art reproductions on canvas. Aqueous inkjet printing on canvas, applying a topcoat, painting embellishments on, often applying another coat over the embellishments, stretching the canvas.

Currently deciding between Latex, Eco-solvent, and Aqueous. Considering the manufacturers below, but open to suggestions

• HP Latex 360
• Epson S80600
• Mimaki JV300
• Canon ipf8400

Considerations:

• Reducing labour in terms of coating. Big points for latex and eco-solvent.
• Ink longevity
  • Lightfastness of ecosolvent and latex?
• Serviceability of the machine.
  • User replaceable heads?
  • Which is easiest to maintain?
• RIP recommendations.
  • Ease of use, support, price, etc.
• Gamut
  • Are the expanded gamut inks in the Epson Mimaki and Canon necessary for our application?
  • Solvent and Latex capable of hitting close to the same gamut as aqueous on Canvas?
• Embellishment process
  • How will our embellishment process work with solvent or latex?

Your expertise is appreciated!

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

While I can't address all the questions you have, I can comment on a good product we use in our aqueous (Epson) printer that might be helpful. I have seen many other labs in our co-op group that do the coating of the canvas. We switched to Fuji Vivid Canvas and that eliminated the need to do coating or spraying. In turn that eliminated issues with cracking or other problems that coating can cause sometimes. I have customers who paint acrylic paint over the canvas with good results, so I think it would meet your embellishment requirements. http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/photofinishing/wide_format_inkjet/fujifilm_wfij_media/vivid-canvas-semi-gloss-350/index.html

I have listened to a lot of users discussing latex vs. solvent and they both seem viable to me, but I think aqueous still has unsurpassed quality. I think the main advantage of the other types is much lower material cost. I have heard latex and solvent users say their gamut is "good enough" when compared to aqueous and that may be, but I think your end-user expectations will determine that. We swap printers every 2-3 years, and last time we actually backed off from the 10 channel color machines back down to the 8 ink machines, because found that the 8's are more reliable. We have not missed the extra gamut provided by the orange and green inks we no longer have. We are mostly printing photos and we don't need extreme gamut. If we doing more corporate graphics we might feel differently.

The debate between replaceable heads (Canon) and fixed (Epson) has been going on for a while too. I hated the Epson 10 channel fixed heads because they seemed to have a lot of clogging issues, but the 8 channel machines have been pretty reliable. We have had 5 machines.
Some Canon guys love the replaceable heads and others think they spend too much money on replacing them.
Love the fact that these machines are pretty inexpensive too, but the ink is pretty dear, of course.

 

[arossetti]

we actually backed off from the 10 channel color machines back down to the 8 ink machines, because found that the 8's are more reliable. We have not missed the extra gamut provided by the orange and green inks we no longer have. .

Have you noticed an increase in ink usage now that you do not have orange and green inks?

 

[Correct Color]

Of the machines you've listed, for what you're trying to do, first and foremost forget the HP 360. It is not a fine-art quality machine. It also has some serious color consistency issues that HP has so far refused to even acknowledge, so who knows when they'll address fixing them.

After that, it depends just how "fine" your art is. If all you print on is canvas, then you might indeed get away with a solvent machine. The Epson you've listed is a third-generation now and a pretty impressive machine. The Mimaki I can't speak to. Its specs say it could be a good machine, but Mimaki is so adamant that their users use their silly little RasterLink RIP -- that cannot be profiled at all without an over-priced module their users never buy -- that I have yet to even see one.

Of the machines on your list, the Canon is by far and away the best quality printer. I've recommended them to clients of mine across the country and as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing out there that beats them for color quality and consistency.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[bteifeld]

Is the Fuji Vivid Canvas suited for long-term color reliability given optical brightening agents(whiteness of 108.8) and no protective topcoating?

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

Have you noticed an increase in ink usage now that you do not have orange and green inks?

We have not noticed any increase.

We did note that were hardly using any green or orange ink with the type of printing were doing - hence the change to the simpler printhead.

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

Is the Fuji Vivid Canvas suited for long-term color reliability given optical brightening agents(whiteness of 108.8) and no protective topcoating?

We use the Fuji product due to their regard for longevity across the line. I have heard them recommend top coating if you want ultimate UV radiation protection. I was at meeting recently where LexJet discussed the effects of optical brighteners and extra tocoats, but I don't have direct comment from on durability of the Fuji precoated canvas. One of the other vendors for which I believe Fuji makes this for as an OEM rates the product at 55 years without topcoat and 75 with a topcoat. It is said to be OBA free.

 

[ekselsior]

Looking for some recommendations on new equipment to replace our old process:

We do fine art reproductions on canvas. Aqueous inkjet printing on canvas, applying a topcoat, painting embellishments on, often applying another coat over the embellishments, stretching the canvas.

Currently deciding between Latex, Eco-solvent, and Aqueous. Considering the manufacturers below, but open to suggestions

• HP Latex 360
• Epson S80600
• Mimaki JV300
• Canon ipf8400

Considerations:

• Reducing labour in terms of coating. Big points for latex and eco-solvent.
• Ink longevity
  • Lightfastness of ecosolvent and latex?
• Serviceability of the machine.
  • User replaceable heads?
  • Which is easiest to maintain?
• RIP recommendations.
  • Ease of use, support, price, etc.
• Gamut
  • Are the expanded gamut inks in the Epson Mimaki and Canon necessary for our application?
  • Solvent and Latex capable of hitting close to the same gamut as aqueous on Canvas?
• Embellishment process
  • How will our embellishment process work with solvent or latex?

Your expertise is appreciated!

Thank You for breaking my confused. Actually, I prefer using Latex Canvas printing for my creation at all.

 

[arossetti]

Of the machines you've listed, for what you're trying to do, first and foremost forget the HP 360. It is not a fine-art quality machine. It also has some serious color consistency issues that HP has so far refused to even acknowledge, so who knows when they'll address fixing them.

After that, it depends just how "fine" your art is. If all you print on is canvas, then you might indeed get away with a solvent machine. The Epson you've listed is a third-generation now and a pretty impressive machine. The Mimaki I can't speak to. Its specs say it could be a good machine, but Mimaki is so adamant that their users use their silly little RasterLink RIP -- that cannot be profiled at all without an over-priced module their users never buy -- that I have yet to even see one.

Of the machines on your list, the Canon is by far and away the best quality printer. I've recommended them to clients of mine across the country and as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing out there that beats them for color quality and consistency.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

I'm going to hijack this thread slightly. Mike, we just installed a HP3100 latex and I'm having all sorts of issues when it comes to gray neutrality. The ink seems to suffer from severe metamerism failure; grays shift drastically but also I don't seem to get predictable results when I introduce a correction curve into caldera. Does any of this sound familiar? Can you elaborate on what issues you have run into with the HP latex; beyond the fact that you have no control over transitions?

 

[DYP]

I'm going to hijack this thread slightly. Mike, we just installed a HP3100 latex and I'm having all sorts of issues when it comes to gray neutrality. The ink seems to suffer from severe metamerism failure; grays shift drastically but also I don't seem to get predictable results when I introduce a correction curve into caldera. Does any of this sound familiar? Can you elaborate on what issues you have run into with the HP latex; beyond the fact that you have no control over transitions?

How many heads of each color does the HP3100 have. I am only familiar with the 300 series which because of having only one lc/lm printhead does have more color shift issues when using the CMYKcm mode with the faster speeds.

 

[arossetti]

The 3100 has 2 lc/lm heads. I used a custom profiling chart that has extra gray patches so I have eliminated a need to use Curve. I'm getting better results but the grays still seem to really suffer from a metamerism failure; they can shift from warm to cool under different lighting very easily. If they look decent and maybe slightly cool under D50 they can turn purple under office lighting; I can explain a slight shift to a client but what I'm looking at I've never seen so pronounced before. I'm wondering how the optimizer affects paper white and if areas without a ink dot are still changed from the paper WP by some byproduct of the latex ink technology.

 

[Correct Color]

arossetti

I'm going to hijack this thread slightly. Mike, we just installed a HP3100 latex and I'm having all sorts of issues when it comes to gray neutrality. The ink seems to suffer from severe metamerism failure; grays shift drastically but also I don't seem to get predictable results when I introduce a correction curve into caldera. Does any of this sound familiar? Can you elaborate on what issues you have run into with the HP latex; beyond the fact that you have no control over transitions?

Sorry to take so long answering, I just now happened to notice this.

But in answer, I can't really say for sure, because I've never seen a 3100. From what I understand, HP sends factory people out to profile them with most of their installs, so I've never gotten a call to profile one.

I do have just a little issue with the term "metamerism" though. It actually takes two images for metamerism to take place, and technically, metamerism os the phenomenon that allows two colors produced by different means to match in given lighting conditions. What you're describing I think is more accurately described as "hue shift."

But anyway... That does surprise me, because one of the things I've considered to be something of an advantage with latex inks overall is that they seem less susceptible to hue shift as a general rule of thumb than competitive eco-solvent inksets.

If you do have an inkset that's prone to hue shift though, the only possible way to help is it to bring the black in as early as you can and as aggressively as you can in the ICC profile. It's possible that whatever profiles you're using are so weak in this regard that they could be causing the problem.

That's just a guess though.

One thing that's certain though is that correction curves won't solve the problem. Somehow or another if it's there, it's there, and all curves will do is alter the shades you see in different lighting.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[Forrest M]

While I can't address all the questions you have, I can comment on a good product we use in our aqueous (Epson) printer that might be helpful. I have seen many other labs in our co-op group that do the coating of the canvas. We switched to Fuji Vivid Canvas and that eliminated the need to do coating or spraying. In turn that eliminated issues with cracking or other problems that coating can cause sometimes. I have customers who paint acrylic paint over the canvas with good results, so I think it would meet your embellishment requirements. http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/photofinishing/wide_format_inkjet/fujifilm_wfij_media/vivid-canvas-semi-gloss-350/index.html

I have listened to a lot of users discussing latex vs. solvent and they both seem viable to me, but I think aqueous still has unsurpassed quality. I think the main advantage of the other types is much lower material cost. I have heard latex and solvent users say their gamut is "good enough" when compared to aqueous and that may be, but I think your end-user expectations will determine that. We swap printers every 2-3 years, and last time we actually backed off from the 10 channel color machines back down to the 8 ink machines, because found that the 8's are more reliable. We have not missed the extra gamut provided by the orange and green inks we no longer have. We are mostly printing photos and we don't need extreme gamut. If we doing more corporate graphics we might feel differently.

The debate between replaceable heads (Canon) and fixed (Epson) has been going on for a while too. I hated the Epson 10 channel fixed heads because they seemed to have a lot of clogging issues, but the 8 channel machines have been pretty reliable. We have had 5 machines.
Some Canon guys love the replaceable heads and others think they spend too much money on replacing them.
Love the fact that these machines are pretty inexpensive too, but the ink is pretty dear, of course.

I got a roll of Fuji Vivid Canvas to test out not having to coat it before wrapping(printed on a cannon ipf8400). The print is easily smudged though. Any tips for printer settings(or anything else) to fix that?

 

[DYP]

I got a roll of Fuji Vivid Canvas to test out not having to coat it before wrapping(printed on a cannon ipf8400). The print is easily smudged though. Any tips for printer settings(or anything else) to fix that?

You defiantly need to coat anything coming off the iPF8400. I don't print canvas with aqueous printers anymore. With the coating is is just to expensive and all my clients like what come off the Latex better.

 

[Lorenzo lab guy]

I got a roll of Fuji Vivid Canvas to test out not having to coat it before wrapping(printed on a cannon ipf8400). The print is easily smudged though. Any tips for printer settings(or anything else) to fix that?

We use an Epson printer and there is no smear or smudge on the Vivid Canvas. I cannot address the behavior of the Canon printers. Sorry.

 

[Forrest M]

Does anyone know that archival rating for canvas prints done with the epson s80600?