Embedded vs External Fiery Server for printing PDF’s and InDesign

[JustinB]

I don't believe that embedded versus external there should be a quality difference for most applications. RIP time will no doubt suffer. Don't you just have to load Command Workstation on another computer and program the job from there? Perhaps there are some features disabled but I would be surprised if it just dumbed down the print quality itself.

One thing concerning is the $500/month lease term budget...not sure that you could get a worthwhile machine with service and supplies for that? That doesn't add up. Definitely approach with caution.

Sorry, going to have to disagree with you on this one.

I had 2 of the EXACT same presses, just one with embedded rip and one with external fiery rip. Send the exact same file to both machines and get completely different color. Just for fun I swapped the external fiery for the embedded and printed the job again. The colors between the two machines now magically matched. After that I bought an external fiery for my machine on ebay that matched what I already had and left behind all my color/quality issues going from machine to machine.

There was a HUGE difference in output between the external vs embedded.

External fiery every time.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Sorry, going to have to disagree with you on this one.

I had 2 of the EXACT same presses, just one with embedded rip and one with external fiery rip. Send the exact same file to both machines and get completely different color. Just for fun I swapped the external fiery for the embedded and printed the job again. The colors between the two machines now magically matched. After that I bought an external fiery for my machine on ebay that matched what I already had and left behind all my color/quality issues going from machine to machine.

There was a HUGE difference in output between the external vs embedded.

External fiery every time.

Quoted for truth.

 

[kslight]

Sorry, going to have to disagree with you on this one.

I had 2 of the EXACT same presses, just one with embedded rip and one with external fiery rip. Send the exact same file to both machines and get completely different color. Just for fun I swapped the external fiery for the embedded and printed the job again. The colors between the two machines now magically matched. After that I bought an external fiery for my machine on ebay that matched what I already had and left behind all my color/quality issues going from machine to machine.

There was a HUGE difference in output between the external vs embedded.

External fiery every time.

No need to disagree, we are talking about different things. I am talking about quality, you are talking about color matching. OP is asking about "quality and crispness" of printing.

Unless I am mistaken, the OP is not going to purchase two different printers with different front ends to compare colors with... if there is indeed a *color* difference that's not something too concerning. One could also argue that the various KM/Canon/Xerox/etc machines they may be auditioning will also have color differences...even if they demo a floor model and purchase a different unit it will probably be a little different. I am assuming that the OP would demo said machine with their files to make sure it meets their expectations before purchasing. I also am assuming that the budget pretty much states that an external RIP is not going to happen.

 

[JustinB]

Color is quality. The ability to faithfully reproduce the correct color is a sign of the quality of the machine. Embedded rips are flat out different than external rips. Their quality is absolutely different.

 

[msaeger]

I'm sorry but what is the appeal to having text that cannot be read without a loupe or magnifying glass? Attached is a PDF with text that at 12 pt fills an 8.5 x 11 page but at 1.5 pt is 14 lines that fills about 1" of the page.

Here is one I printed on a Ricoh Pro C5200 with the external Fiery. I guess I haven't tried printing that small of font and haven't had anyone ask about it before. I may be easily impressed but I think it's amazing that something that small can print readable.

I doubt the Fiery makes any difference in the ability to print small text. What I have see with the Adobe print engine is more like things will not print correctly as in missing elements with APPE on vs off but not really that the quality is better. The places I see with the embedded type Fiery usually seem like they don't really need a Fiery at all. Like wonderings said you need to try printing your stuff on there, try both Fierys and see if the embedded one does what you want or if you think the better one is worth the price.

 

[CliffSpielman]

No need to disagree, we are talking about different things. I am talking about quality, you are talking about color matching. OP is asking about "quality and crispness" of printing.

Unless I am mistaken, the OP is not going to purchase two different printers with different front ends to compare colors with... if there is indeed a *color* difference that's not something too concerning. One could also argue that the various KM/Canon/Xerox/etc machines they may be auditioning will also have color differences...even if they demo a floor model and purchase a different unit it will probably be a little different. I am assuming that the OP would demo said machine with their files to make sure it meets their expectations before purchasing. I also am assuming that the budget pretty much states that an external RIP is not going to happen.

All correct - though a sales rep made me aware of a very economical lease on a used C700 with an F200 Fiery. I will likely pass though. Do people lease used equipment?

 

[CliffSpielman]

Here is one I printed on a Ricoh Pro C5200 with the external Fiery. I guess I haven't tried printing that small of font and haven't had anyone ask about it before. I may be easily impressed but I think it's amazing that something that small can print readable.

I doubt the Fiery makes any difference in the ability to print small text. What I have see with the Adobe print engine is more like things will not print correctly as in missing elements with APPE on vs off but not really that the quality is better. The places I see with the embedded type Fiery usually seem like they don't really need a Fiery at all. Like wonderings said you need to try printing your stuff on there, try both Fierys and see if the embedded one does what you want or if you think the better one is worth the price.

Very cool. Ricoh presses are maybe the only major brand I haven't done any testing on yet. Maybe I should. Not sure off hand of shops in town with a C5200 though. I still have some confusion about the need for APPE. I got pretty darn good results on a Xerox Versant 80 with a bustled Fiery - which as I understand it doesn't even offer APPE. I've seem comparable, but certainly not better, results with an external Fiery on a Canon C700 and KM C2070, with APPE active.

But keep in mind, my documents are fairly plain except for the small font sizes. I'm looking for crisp text both against the white background and flowing through the one image in the design.

 

[CliffSpielman]

Sorry, going to have to disagree with you on this one.

I had 2 of the EXACT same presses, just one with embedded rip and one with external fiery rip. Send the exact same file to both machines and get completely different color. Just for fun I swapped the external fiery for the embedded and printed the job again. The colors between the two machines now magically matched. After that I bought an external fiery for my machine on ebay that matched what I already had and left behind all my color/quality issues going from machine to machine.

There was a HUGE difference in output between the external vs embedded.

External fiery every time.

Thanks for sharing that experiment. I'm on board with an external Fiery, I just can't justify the cost for my first press and the potential that - though it would be awesome - I may not need it. Good to know that eBay can be a source of used Fiery servers.

 

[Joe]

Very cool. Ricoh presses are maybe the only major brand I haven't done any testing on yet. Maybe I should. Not sure off hand of shops in town with a C5200 though. I still have some confusion about the need for APPE. I got pretty darn good results on a Xerox Versant 80 with a bustled Fiery - which as I understand it doesn't even offer APPE. I've seem comparable, but certainly not better, results with an external Fiery on a Canon C700 and KM C2070, with APPE active.

But keep in mind, my documents are fairly plain except for the small font sizes. I'm looking for crisp text both against the white background and flowing through the one image in the design.

APPE is the Adobe PDF Print Engine and it will handle live transparency much better than the standard RIP included with a Fiery. Plan on it adding about $25,000 to the cost of the RIP though which is what we were recently quoted for adding APPE to ours.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

APPE is a life saver. Highly recommend it.

 

[msaeger]

Very cool. Ricoh presses are maybe the only major brand I haven't done any testing on yet. Maybe I should. Not sure off hand of shops in town with a C5200 though. I still have some confusion about the need for APPE. I got pretty darn good results on a Xerox Versant 80 with a bustled Fiery - which as I understand it doesn't even offer APPE. I've seem comparable, but certainly not better, results with an external Fiery on a Canon C700 and KM C2070, with APPE active.

But keep in mind, my documents are fairly plain except for the small font sizes. I'm looking for crisp text both against the white background and flowing through the one image in the design.

Your current product may be very simple but you are buying something to have for 3 to 5 years so you could be printing something else by then. Also maybe you will be inspired to design other things when you can easily print it yourself.

 

[CliffSpielman]

Your current product may be very simple but you are buying something to have for 3 to 5 years so you could be printing something else by then. Also maybe you will be inspired to design other the when you can easily print it yourself.

Very true. I'm a mad scientist with this stuff and have many ideas I want to try.

 

[CliffSpielman]

APPE is the Adobe PDF Print Engine and it will handle live transparency much better than the standard RIP included with a Fiery. Plan on it adding about $25,000 to the cost of the RIP though which is what we were recently quoted for adding APPE to ours.

Konica Minolta was pitching their IC-603 controller to me. It's either a bustle or maybe even just a chip in the press and it does include APPE so they say. Very cheap. But they didn't have such a press in the demo room. Granted this is a moot point unless you have a KM press or another press with a similar situation.

 

[Puch]

Cliff, IC-603 is a very capable system, and I guess it's quoted to you together with the Accurio Press 20x0 to you, which is also a new (and very good) machine. Will provide all the functionality you need, and much more. APPE is included for sure.

 

[CliffSpielman]

Cliff, IC-603 is a very capable system, and I guess it's quoted to you together with the Accurio Press 20x0 to you, which is also a new (and very good) machine. Will provide all the functionality you need, and much more. APPE is included for sure.

Good to know. It's the Accurio Press C2060 since I don't need the higher capacities.

 

[[email protected]]

APPE is a life saver. Highly recommend it.

When APPE was first included on Ricoh Fiery controllers we recommended not using it as the default unless there was a problem with transparency in which case it usually fixed the issue at the (usually small) expense of RIP time. We did that mainly because sometimes leaving APPE on would break something else in the file. The APPE version 3 and the new v4 though is much more bullet proof and so we set it as the default. Here's a nice explanation of what APPE is and does. http://www.datalogics.com/pdf/APPE_Aug09.pdf