Equipment choice for carbonless forms

F

frogfeathers

New member
In the past we have outsourced all printing. We believe we may now have enough volume in carbonless forms to print them ourselves. We are at 40,000 impressions a month.

What is the best combination of quality and cost per impression?
I do need to be able to number the forms need to offer color.

Any ideas are welcome. I am totally ignorant.
 
If you are just printing line art look at a duplicator... Riso, Ricoh. That might be your best bet.
 
i tried Duplo duplicator, it was a mess, as it s feeder uses frection wheels, they tend to slide over the carbonless paper so, some delay in entering the machine, original and copies don't fit on each other
 
Hard to beats an offset press, Ryobi 3302, Itek etc for cost per impression and there are enough pressman looking for work you could hire one or get one to train you on it. Buy an inexpensive platesetter and your up and running. No click charges, easy to run with a little practice. Very seldom, with proper operator maintenance, will you ever have trouble with these machines. They are built to last for many years. We have several and over a 20 year period I can only think of 2 times that we have ever had to have a service tech in to work on any of them. Most of the repairs can be done by the owner. Good luck.
 
We have been printing all of our carbonless sets on duplicators for the last 15 years. First on a riso 3770 and more recently using a ricoh prioport. The friction feeder on the ricoh is excellent as is the image quality for line work.
 
to think about:-

duplicators - easy and cheap to run, but will require a different drum for each colour and you are limited in the colours available. If you want 2 colours (except for the 2-colour Riso), it means 2 passes and I wouldn't want to take on any jobs that required tight registration.

duplicator presses - steep learning curve if you don't have the experience. Chemicals (most of the world will require compliance with strict regulations, i.e. COSSH), waste disposal, good maintenance procedures. Cheap to run, can run 2-colour in same pass if the press is equipped to do that.

colour copiers - relatively easy and "clean" to run, click charge will make these more expensive for NCR work, but at only 40K impressions per month, this will almost certainly be cheaper than a duplicator press (unless you can already run one yourself).

What about one of those OKI / Xante machines on a non click basis? The thing about NCRs is the colour coverage tends to only be very light. MIGHT be worth considering for a small volume? I may be talking total rubbish there, as I've never owned one, let alone tried to run NCR through them!
 
frogfeathers said:
In the past we have outsourced all printing. We believe we may now have enough volume in carbonless forms to print them ourselves. We are at 40,000 impressions a month.

What is the best combination of quality and cost per impression?
I do need to be able to number the forms need to offer color.

Any ideas are welcome. I am totally ignorant.
Click to expand...

Do you want or need to do numbering?

If so, digital is your best choice. Most manufacturers have tested and approved certain brands of NCR stocks that work well.
 
Digital Press Guy said:
Do you want or need to do numbering?

If so, digital is your best choice. Most manufacturers have tested and approved certain brands of NCR stocks that work well.
Click to expand...

For numbered jobs that would mean using pre-collated paper, or else keeping a very close eye on your numbers if you're post collating (which you would have to to by hand).

We would always print, then collate using a cheap duplo friction feed collator. Glue the sets together using fan-apart glue. Then crash number the sets in our g-whiz. Much less chance of anything going wrong that way.
 
I have been using an Okidata 9600 for carbonless. No click charges. Fuser heat is low enough and friction feed gentle enough not to cause capsule damage. Precollected runs fine - have never had a misfeed. Combine with 'VeryPDF Stamper' or 'IntelliPDF Bates Stamper' for numbering and other stamping.

Used to use a Xerox 7760, but the fumes from the heated capsules (high fuser temperature) almost made me pass out!
 
40,000 run cabonless forms best used choices

40,000 run cabonless forms best used choices

Carbonless form run lengths of 40,000 may mean prodction runs double or triple lengths depending upon the # of forms collated. So speed may help.

If so I would recommend a used (Certified) Didde mini web Apollo and or MiniCom from a dealer like Select Machinery (Ask for Bill Callagham) located in California. Bill has good knowledge.

The cost of carbonless paper in sheet form - as opposed to rolls is also ~ 25% higher so, you also need to estimate this too if you go sheet-fed. The mini web will save you money here as well.

If you need sequential (aka "Crash #'ing) numbering do so on a Collator that gathers glues and numbers profeisonally - if so would recommend a used Didde Speed Collect.

Hope this helped.
Greg Imhoff
President GRIPdigital, inc. & Director EPG Color Solutions
(708) 557 - 2021 - cell
Skype: gregimhoff
Print Properties Committee Member and GRACoL G7 Expert
Essex Products Group | Integrated Color Control Systems
 
try digital Konica Minolta 1050

try digital Konica Minolta 1050

You could try Minolta 1050, which can do that job. Otherwise it is an excellent machine.
Hope it will help you

_________________
www.vivaprint.cz
 
The sheet friction issue on the in-feed is where the sheet feeder breaks the encapsulated carbonless coatings embedded into the paper which does not happen on proper Mini Web set ups.

The collating and in line crash numbering makes the job come together neatly and without errors.

With a Apollo mini-web one may produce say 3 part forms complete at 75% operating speed in ~ 16 hours of each month, not including short make-ready times.
The operator may then collate & number ship and report QC of these forms most affordably, with proven technologies within the remaining 40 hours of each work month.

Digital is the future however the cost is higher than proven technology of a Mini-web and SpeedKlect so one may not as easily justify the new evolutionary technologies when compared to my previous suggestion outlined above. I would shop the used market with warranties.

Just my .02. Contact me offline if I can help to clarify.

Greg Imhoff
President GRIPdigital, inc. & Director EPG Color Solutions
(800) 394 - 7130 - office
(708) 557 - 2021 - cell
Skype: gregimhoff
Print Properties Committee Member and GRACoL G7 Expert
Essex Products Group | Integrated Color Control Systems
Productivity and Quality are essentially the same when you are motivated and informed.
 
We run most of our NCR on our Xerox 252 in color or BW. We were running them on our beater walk up copier until we got our 252. It really comes down to your volume. Because of click charges if you are running high volumes per job then it would be worth it to run it offset or a good duplicator. We have a RISO 3700 but it does not do well with graphics or grey scale so we dont run much on this unit as it is old technology. If you are running short runs then digital is the way to go. We focus on short run stuff. We just did 500 sets 2 part and both sheets double sided all BW, printed and glued ready to be picked up same day.
 
For a 500 (2 part) form = 1000 total (2000 impressions - if counting F&B) run on a digital laser or copier, makes sense. One may best farm this job out first for far more affordable results, than bringing in their house.

To run a monthly job of 40,000 run length (1 pass - not 2) of a 3 part form = 120,000 impressions. This needs to be run offset on a dedicated mini-web only to make any business sense.

Greg Imhoff
President GRIPdigital, inc. & Director EPG Color Solutions
(800) 394 - 7130 - office
(708) 557 - 2021 - cell
Skype: gregimhoff
Print Properties Committee Member and GRACoL G7 Expert
Essex Products Group | Integrated Color Control Systems
 
Are you saying that you need to print and number the forms? There are some small offset presses that will print and number in one pass. There are even some that will print 2 colors and number. Are you just printing Arabic numbers or are you also printing checks and need MICR numbers also? Where are you located? I am out here in the Western US. If you are near me, I may be able to help you in person.
Larry
 
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