Esko Artios CAD vs Arden Software

[GianniOSX]

Hi,

What are your views regarding Esko Artios/Plato and Arden Software, costs aside, what are the pros and cons of both? Our company is currently evaluating Esko and also EngView Package Designer, however I do not have enough info on Arden, what are Arden's limitations when compared to Esko? (we have an AGFA APogee X for Pre Press)

Thank you in advance

Gianni.

 

[chevalier]

Brutally honest opinions...

I have both Artios and Impact in my plant. Latest, greatest versions...

Esko Artios is generally best if you want to integrate with MIS/ERP, Prepress (AutomationEngine, DeskPack, ArtPro, etc.) while Arden Impact is better ONLY for the CAD operator.

Arden Impact can barely export a decent PDF, dxf, etc for graphic designers and prepress. You'll have to rework the file in Illustrator, etc. every time you export it from Impact. Importing something from prepress or foreign CAD systems is also a joke. If your CAD department is the most important department in the world go with Impact otherwise I recommend Artios despite it having its own problems. For the record I am not a fan of Impact at all. The CAD department however loves it.

ArtiosCAD isn't the greatest thing ever but at least it integrates into a printing/prepress workflow fairly well. Functionality is pretty much the same as Arden Impact. There's also a free Esko plugin for Illustrator that lets you place ARD files.

Esko Plato is awful. Laughably bad. It feels like a program from 1995 and has the GUI of a very very primitive program. I've been vocal about it since I bought it but to harness automation I'm pretty much stuck with it. Tilia Labs Phoenix product is the best product in the market for plating/layout in my opinion. Since you're currently using Agfa Apogee I even more strongly recommend Tilia Labs Phoenix.

I have no experience with EngView Package Designer.

 

[GianniOSX]

Brutally honest opinions...

I have both Artios and Impact in my plant. Latest, greatest versions...

Esko Artios is generally best if you want to integrate with MIS/ERP, Prepress (AutomationEngine, DeskPack, ArtPro, etc.) while Arden Impact is better ONLY for the CAD operator.

Arden Impact can barely export a decent PDF, dxf, etc for graphic designers and prepress. You'll have to rework the file in Illustrator, etc. every time you export it from Impact. Importing something from prepress or foreign CAD systems is also a joke. If your CAD department is the most important department in the world go with Impact otherwise I recommend Artios despite it having its own problems. For the record I am not a fan of Impact at all. The CAD department however loves it.

ArtiosCAD isn't the greatest thing ever but at least it integrates into a printing/prepress workflow fairly well. Functionality is pretty much the same as Arden Impact. There's also a free Esko plugin for Illustrator that lets you place ARD files.

Esko Plato is awful. Laughably bad. It feels like a program from 1995 and has the GUI of a very very primitive program. I've been vocal about it since I bought it but to harness automation I'm pretty much stuck with it. Tilia Labs Phoenix product is the best product in the market for plating/layout in my opinion. Since you're currently using Agfa Apogee I even more strongly recommend Tilia Labs Phoenix.

I have no experience with EngView Package Designer.

Thank you for your opinion!,

We need both the structural part as well as the layout part, and tilia labs software only does the layout part (tried the demo in which it is pretty good).. It seems as the Package Designer integrates all in 1 system (it also has the illustrator integration as DeskPack plugin for ESKO).. anyone is currently using this system?

Thank you again.
Gianni

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Gianni, as an Arden Impact dealer, I would like to offer you the ability to see for yourself how Impact imports/exports *your specific files*.

Unless you are in Australia, this is not a potential sale for my company, it is just to balance out this topic thread. I would hope that my post is therefore considered in the spirit in which it was given.

You can then make your own decision based on the imported and exported results.

You may also wish to look into Kodak Pandora software (yes, full disclosure, are also a Kodak dealer). Again, this is not a sales pitch, just offering you another option.

I performed beta testing and feedback on the initial 1.0 release of Phoenix from Tilia Labs, I liked it and think it had/has a lot of potential!


Sincerely,

Stephen Marsh

 

[GianniOSX]

Dear Stephen,

Thank you for your msg.

I would love more info on the Impact Software.

Thanks in advance,
Gianni

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Dear Stephen,

Thank you for your msg.

I would love more info on the Impact Software.

Thanks in advance,
Gianni

Hi Gianni, what info specifically?

General info can be found here, watch the videos and read the text (apologies if English is not your native language):

Impact – Arden Software

In order for you to check if the import/export results are usable I can can offer the following:

I can provide a copy of an export from a parametric standard from the FEFCO or ECMA libraries exported to say DXF or CF2 and PDF (please provide the standard code such as FEFCO 0202, material type/thickness and internal L-W-H for the panels).

If you supply a file for import testing, I can import and export it back out again in say DXF or CF2 and PDF formats.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Attached is a sample of a PDF export from Arden Impact 2014. Impact licenses the Adobe PDF Library for PDF import/exports. This file is a direct export, it has not been altered outside of Impact. Apart from the document colour mode being RGB, you should note that there are global spot colours for the cut, crease etc. There are PDF layers for the spot colours. Elements are combined for selecting into like spot colours etc.

Chevalier would have to comment on what he feels is lacking in such a PDF file for graphic design purposes. It is easy enough to change the document mode from RGB to CMYK (as single menu command or action keystroke). It would be easy enough to create an action or script to overcome any other perceived issues such as adding overprinting info etc.

This is from a parametric standard library: ECMA Folding Carton / Group A - Long Seam Glued, Rect. Surfaces / A11.11.03.03 (Skillet) - Overlapping Skillet. Internal measurements - L:175mm W:55mm D: 135mm

EDIT: The material was 350/0.014 (0.35mm) Folding Box Board


Stephen Marsh

 

[Simon Ivarsson]

Attached is a sample of a PDF export from Arden Impact 2014. Impact licenses the Adobe PDF Library for PDF import/exports. This file is a direct export, it has not been altered outside of Impact. Apart from the document colour mode being RGB, you should note that there are global spot colours for the cut, crease etc. There are PDF layers for the spot colours. Elements are combined for selecting into like spot colours etc.

Chevalier would have to comment on what he feels is lacking in such a PDF file for graphic design purposes. It is easy enough to change the document mode from RGB to CMYK (as single menu command or action keystroke). It would be easy enough to create an action or script to overcome any other perceived issues such as adding overprinting info etc.

This is from a parametric standard library: ECMA Folding Carton / Group A - Long Seam Glued, Rect. Surfaces / A11.11.03.03 (Skillet) - Overlapping Skillet. Internal measurements - L:175mm W:55mm D: 135mm


Stephen Marsh

I have worked with plenty of cad files in Illustrator. And this pdf is as good as any.
So im also interested to know whats not good about it.

 

[chevalier]

Chevalier would have to comment on what he feels is lacking in such a PDF file for graphic design purposes. It is easy enough to change the document mode from RGB to CMYK (as single menu command or action keystroke). It would be easy enough to create an action or script to overcome any other perceived issues such as adding overprinting info etc.

I stand by my statement that Impact is a great CAD tool for CAD operators if you generally care less about how it connects/integrates and behaves with other departments and computer systems. Artios too has own problems but at least it integrates fairly easily.

My expectation is that the PDFs should be everything that the ARD file that I can generate in Illustrator with Esko DeskPack Visualizer prior to exporting it. Proper layers, proper colors, proper color space, and proper transparency/overprint. I should never need to spend ANY time tweaking a CAD file. I see this akin as plating needing to tweak work orders from customer service, printing needing to tweak plates from prepress, cutting needing to tweak cutting tooling from dieshop, gluing needing to trim excess trim from cutting, I think you get the point.

One department - especially when handling off digital assets - should be handing off an asset that is as optimal as possible. Impact PDFs meet the absolute minimum requirements and little more. What kills me is not the fact that we have to internally tweak everything it's when the CAD department sends files out to the customer. We spend on average 15 minutes to an hour extracting die elements from the designer's files because of the disorganized slop that Impact throws at them.

I tested this workflow with significant - yet very annoying - success:
Export PDF from Impact
Import PDF into Illustrator
Preform necessary tweaks
Export as ARD from Illustrator (DeskPack Visualizer)
Send Designer ARD file and assist them with acquiring/installing Esko ARD Plugin (Free).

In the end I ended up spending just as much time if not more helping them get and install the ARD plugin. I got way too much pushback for SPEED and PDFs from sales.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thank you for your feedback chevalier, as a user of both Artios and Impact end files, it is valuable to have your opinion.

Unlike other CAD products, Impact runs on a database, generally SQL, however it could be say Oracle. So one route to sharing information with other systems is through database connectivity.

Another route is to include information in say the export filename. By default, Arden Impact automatically uses the Project Name as the prefix for the file export, then the layer name. This default file naming behaviour can be modified for exports by adding extra information, such as Customer Code, Customer Name, Project Code, Date and Time.

Another possible route could be metadata, however I have not looked into this as yet.


Stephen Marsh

I stand by my statement that Impact is a great CAD tool for CAD operators if you generally care less about how it connects/integrates and behaves with other departments and computer systems. Artios too has own problems but at least it integrates fairly easily.

My expectation is that the PDFs should be everything that the ARD file that I can generate in Illustrator with Esko DeskPack Visualizer prior to exporting it. Proper layers, proper colors, proper color space, and proper transparency/overprint. I should never need to spend ANY time tweaking a CAD file. I see this akin as plating needing to tweak work orders from customer service, printing needing to tweak plates from prepress, cutting needing to tweak cutting tooling from dieshop, gluing needing to trim excess trim from cutting, I think you get the point.

One department - especially when handling off digital assets - should be handing off an asset that is as optimal as possible. Impact PDFs meet the absolute minimum requirements and little more. What kills me is not the fact that we have to internally tweak thing it's when the CAD department sends files out to the customer. We spend on average 15 minutes to an hour extracting die elements from the designer's files because of the disorganized slop that Impact throws at them.

I tested this workflow with significant - yet very annoying - success:
Export PDF from Impact
Import PDF into Illustrator
Preform necessary tweaks
Export as ARD from Illustrator (DeskPack Visualizer)
Send Designer ARD file and assist them with acquiring/installing Esko ARD Plugin (Free).

In the end I ended up spending just as much time if not more helping them get and install the ARD plugin. I got way too much pushback for SPEED and PDFs from sales.

 

[chevalier]

Thank you for your feedback chevalier, as a user of both Artios and Impact end files, it is valuable to have your opinion.

If only Arden felt this way.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I tested this workflow with significant - yet very annoying - success:
Export PDF from Impact
Import PDF into Illustrator
Preform necessary tweaks
Export as ARD from Illustrator (DeskPack Visualizer)
Send Designer ARD file and assist them with acquiring/installing Esko ARD Plugin (Free).

chevalier, in an earlier post you shared some assets that you had developed for working with Impact exported files in your workflow.

Earlier this year, you also shared an Illustrator action file that you made to recolour paths into spot colours (I can’t find that post). I believe that this was a work around for an Impact .ai/.eps export. As you are now aware, the PDF export of Impact does retain the spot colours, so there is no need to use an action to change CMYK paths to spot colours etc.

Anyway, the action that you posted used manual stops, where the user had to go and select a path, before resuming playback, then repeat with more manual stops etc. This is obviously far from ideal, I am presuming that you constructed the action this was is because it is not immediately obvious how to get Illustrator to record the selection of a specific swatch colour…

I have now figured out how to record explicit selection by path swatch colour into an Illustrator action (it has long been a gripe of mine that Illustrator actions are limited when compared to Photoshop actions). I am very happy to have overcome this issue, as the only productive work around is via a script. If you had asked me yesterday if this was possible in an action, I would have said no!

This Adobe Illustrator action is intended to facilitate the use of Arden Impact 2014 One Up PDF CAD exports for use in graphic design and production in Adobe Illustrator.

The action will perform the following tasks:

* All stroked paths will be set to a weight of 0.25pt
* All stroked paths will be set to overprint
* Filled “Dimension” text paths will be set to overprint
* Each Arden Impact “palette” spot colour will be grouped and assigned to a layer of the same name
* The Arden Impact “Dimension” objects will be remapped to the Adobe Illustrator “Registration” swatch
* Document colour mode will be changed from RGB to CMYK


There are five variations to the action. To avoid errors, it is critical to match the action name to the swatches present in the PDF file:

Process: Crease, Cut, Dimension, Bleeds & Non print
Process: Crease, Cut, Bleeds & Dimension only
Process: Crease, Cut, Dimension & Non print only
Process: Crease, Cut & Dimension only
Process: Crease & Cut only


chevalier, this action was not designed to suit your particular workflow as this was created for my personal use, however I thought that you may be interested in taking a look.

Attached is a sample Illustrator action, cover note and sample PDF file



Stephen Marsh

 

[chevalier]

Thanks for sharing. I'll take a look at this and if I can improve upon it will share.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks for sharing. I'll take a look at this and if I can improve upon it will share.

Before I could get the action to work automatically, I asked a scripting friend to see if they could help out on the side when they had “spare time”… to be continued!


Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

My expectation is that the PDFs should be everything that the ARD file that I can generate in Illustrator with Esko DeskPack Visualizer prior to exporting it. Proper layers, proper colors, proper color space, and proper transparency/overprint. I should never need to spend ANY time tweaking a CAD file.

Update: Arden Impact 2015 was recently released, the (2D CAD) PDF export option now includes an option to automatically set overprints for all filled/stroked content in the PDF and to export in CMYK or RGB.


Stephen Marsh

 

[chevalier]

A shame they haven't updated the website yet. Do you have access to what's new docs?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

A shame they haven't updated the website yet. Do you have access to what's new docs?

http://www.ardensoftware.com/press-releases/2015/8/10/impact-2015-available-now

PDF download link at the foot of the page.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Mxd]

chevalier, in an earlier post you shared some assets that you had developed for working with Impact exported files in your workflow.

Earlier this year, you also shared an Illustrator action file that you made to recolour paths into spot colours (I can’t find that post). I believe that this was a work around for an Impact .ai/.eps export. As you are now aware, the PDF export of Impact does retain the spot colours, so there is no need to use an action to change CMYK paths to spot colours etc.

Anyway, the action that you posted used manual stops, where the user had to go and select a path, before resuming playback, then repeat with more manual stops etc. This is obviously far from ideal, I am presuming that you constructed the action this was is because it is not immediately obvious how to get Illustrator to record the selection of a specific swatch colour…

I have now figured out how to record explicit selection by path swatch colour into an Illustrator action (it has long been a gripe of mine that Illustrator actions are limited when compared to Photoshop actions). I am very happy to have overcome this issue, as the only productive work around is via a script. If you had asked me yesterday if this was possible in an action, I would have said no!

This Adobe Illustrator action is intended to facilitate the use of Arden Impact 2014 One Up PDF CAD exports for use in graphic design and production in Adobe Illustrator.

The action will perform the following tasks:

* All stroked paths will be set to a weight of 0.25pt
* All stroked paths will be set to overprint
* Filled “Dimension” text paths will be set to overprint
* Each Arden Impact “palette” spot colour will be grouped and assigned to a layer of the same name
* The Arden Impact “Dimension” objects will be remapped to the Adobe Illustrator “Registration” swatch
* Document colour mode will be changed from RGB to CMYK


There are five variations to the action. To avoid errors, it is critical to match the action name to the swatches present in the PDF file:

Process: Crease, Cut, Dimension, Bleeds & Non print
Process: Crease, Cut, Bleeds & Dimension only
Process: Crease, Cut, Dimension & Non print only
Process: Crease, Cut & Dimension only
Process: Crease & Cut only


chevalier, this action was not designed to suit your particular workflow as this was created for my personal use, however I thought that you may be interested in taking a look.

Attached is a sample Illustrator action, cover note and sample PDF file



Stephen Marsh

I'm sory to post in this old topic. It's so old that the attached files are no longer available...
Would it be possible to repost this illustrator tool? I'm very interested!

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Hi Mxd, you are right it is an old topic thread. I created the action for personal and client use, however it was a snapshot in time… In later versions of Impact this has been automated, see the screenshots attached.

What version of Impact are you running? What version of Illustrator? (the action was created in v6 and does not work correctly in CC2018).

Illustrator actions are really slow for this task, a scripted version runs x10 times faster.

Screenshots attached of the improved export settings and the result straight into Acrobat Reader, without any post processing.



Stephen Marsh