Files from Europe for printing jobs in USA/Nothern America

[Ulrich]

Dear Colleagues,

first of all my congratulations to the level of knowledge and interest in the discussions in this forum, it seems anything else than poor, so far as i understand right, what i am reading here in the printing-section
I myself working about 20 years in the prepress in a shetfeed offset printing office in Berlin, Germany, sometimes engaged in a quite similar (swiss) Forum in german language "www.hilfDirSelbst.ch".

A few weeks ago in that forum a subscriber was asking how to prepare his files for a printing job planned in the US with the aim of equal results as possible as the same jobs done in Germany.

Concrete: Does he have to convert/export an PDF/x with OutputIntent "USSheetfedCoated.icc" or "USWebCoatedSWOP.icc" (depending on the machine), or may he expect that you guys and girls will convert a file with OI maybe ISOcoatedv2 into the right one?

I was pleasantly surprised to read here, that you are using the European profiles or better characterisation-sets FOGRA39/47 too and even that you are took notice from the "new" FOGRA 51 and 52. (It will take time till the "new" profiles will come to the layout-agencys and printing-offices to supersede FOGRA39 and 47, because the other mesearing with M1 method causes new Equipement (mesearing-tools and lightning, calibration-sets and last but not least learnig how to do...)

It was a surprise, because till yet i thought "your" standard GRACOL/G7-method is based in on other approach - to calibrate and control the grey balance - than in Europe (ECI/FOGRA/UGRA), where the tone-Value-Increase rules the calibration for the platesetting and that make it neccasary to choose the GraCol-profiles. (Color location / Colorant Description? of 100% C, M, Y + K meseared in Lab is common in both methods.)

What is your advice? Is it better to convert (and proofing the GraCol-profiles) in Europe (and export an valid PDF/x with OI) in a maybe not more actual american profile as i suspect USWebCoatedSWOP.icc and USWebCoatedSWOP.icc?

Or is it to much greenness to think - just depending of luck - to get automatically an US-printer, who is able to do the neccassary work aiming simular results here and there? Would you say it is naturalness for you to convert files with an european FOGRA or IFRA profile? Or can´t you speak not for colleagues / only for yourselves, because some do it so and others not....?


Thank you very much for any comment or opinion,

best regards and begging your pardon for all my faults in the english language,

Ulrich

 

[Ulrich]

May be just to much words for a first post, so i´m trying to push this questions up, hoping again, that someone have mercy with me and my irritation about how Offsetprinting is handled in Nothern America:

May i - sending files from Germany - expect, that an american or canadian printing office took notice of an OutputIntent in a PDF/x-file FOGRA39/ISOcoatedv2, 47(PSO_Uncoated_ISO12647_eci) or even already 51(PSOcoated_v3) or 52(PSOuncoated_v3_FOGRA52) and will do a necessary convertion to Gracol-profiles?

Is there not automatically a need for you to convert, because a lot of printing-offices in Nothern America are calibrating and controll their (offset-) workflow according to the TVI´s and Colorant Description of C,M,Y and K how it is documented in the characterisation-sets of the FOGRA profiles?

Would you say, that more offices are working with the G7-method and with the Gracol-profiles?

Where is the fault in my imagination? Please, don´t let me die stupid!

Or everybody reading here had bought a VW-Diesel (Volkswagen) last year ;-)


Thanks again,

Ulrich

 

[bebris]

Hello Ulrich,

I'm from Europe as you and I also use FOGRA/ECI profiles. I can not answer your question, but I would like you to ask one?
Are you as prepress worker converting PDF with OI set to non European profiles to FOGRA/ECI profiles?

At my company we do not convert.

regards
bebris

 

[Ulrich]

Thank you bebris
(may i ask in which country you are working?)

Are you as prepress worker converting PDF with OI set to non European profiles to FOGRA/ECI profiles?

in 99 cases from 100 i do not convert for this reasons:

The SWOP-files come from a lot of non professionels or even from professionel and educated grafic-people. The first one did not ever heard from the Colourmanagement-stuff, the others are mostly afraid or overwhelmed of doing colormanagement. They are "creatives" no technicians... (i would say, best 30% are knowing the basics and may be 5-10% are really prepared for discussions...).

So, if i get PDF-files from german customers with an (american) SWOP-OutputIntent, than i´m very sure, that they don´t know, what they are doing. But probably they already had print the same CMYK-Values in other products and expect the same results on the same papertype of course (doesn´t matter how consistent their softproof is configurated, but they had make their "own expierience" with their Imac-screens and notbook-panels and they are used to what they are seeing...) By the way i handle every FOGRA27 unconverted like a FOGRA39/Isocoatedv2 for the same reasons...

In "important" cases i can analize the histogramm with a script, often only the OI is SWOP, but even in a PDF/x-1 (already CMYK with no tagged objects) the real separation is FOGRA27 or euroscale coated or whatever...). I´m truly not writing here for advertising, but docbee´s profile Tagger is a fine tool to expose real separations...

Are there doubt´s left, we sold them a hardcopy-proof with unconverted values for printing as FOGRA39/ISOcoatedv2 according PSO (ProzessStandardOffset). In many cases, for example a monthly regional church-community-newspaper, the result is not a total catastrophe, if the fotos are not so near to the RGB-originals as possible with an ISOcoatedv2-separation and there are a lot of fotos printed, a real photographer would never call a photography...

But if we know/notice, that is either an american customer or grafic-person or a letter-size format instead DIN-format or it is a job with more than usual material- and bindery-costs or just a high claim-sujet (art, fashion and so on...) we start communication about expectations and at least convert via devicelink with ALWAN-CMYK-optimizer.


----

May be in Nothern America the colleagues did it just in the same way for the same reasons, just in the other direction (no converting in most of the cases or from FOGRA to SWOP or GraCol only then, when the claim requires a special handling or the customer ask for that)?

Or do a lot (more than i guess...) of american prepress workers calibrate their workflow with the FOGRA-Profiles according to the TVI´s as documented on page 44 in this publication: http://tinyurl.com/zp98t2w? (it´s an extract of the PSO revisioned 2016 and the ISO 12647-2:2013 for less, but in german language).

I know some people in the printing business in my country, but nobody who is working with CraCol or G7, so i´m really surprised to notice that the FOGRA-Profiles are in use in America, but not sure that i get it right only by reading in this forum.


So, thank´s again in front for more comments about how you are handling FOGRA-OI´s in PDF/x,

Ulrich

 

[NathanD]

Hello Ulrich,

In my experience, North American printers will not convert your files for many of the reasons you have already stated. If you have a Fogra profile (or any CMYK profile for that matter) as a PDF-X output intent, the printer will likely ignore it. Standard CMYK to CMYK conversions should be avoided. If they need to be done, they should be done so using DeviceLink profiles in a color server. Many printers do not have this capability.

Consult your American printer to see what specification they aim to print to (i.e. GRACoL2006, GRACoL2013, custom press profile). You can softproof using that profile and set up a proofing workflow to simulate that print condition. However, if you are already proofing to Fogra39, you will be very close to GRACoL2006 already, due to the similarities between the datasets. Most North American printers (claim to) print to GRACoL2006.

If maintaining color across international printing specifications (or custom press profiles) is high priority, you yourself can do color conversions via a Color Server. That way, the North American GRACoL2006 printer will be printing converted files with resulting color that should align better with Fogra39.

 

[Ulrich]

hi Nathan

this is really an important information, thank you very much:

Most North American printers (claim to) print to GRACoL2006.

not because the (claim to), that´s not unequal here, but here in Germany most of my colluages (and myself, too) are guessing the old SWOP-profiles (USwebcoatedSWOP and USsheetfedcoated and so on...), they came with the Adobe-Installation are the one´s you are working with mostly...

So i understand right?: The newer GraCol2013-profiles are similar to FOGRA51 and 52 (with slightly modified TVI-curves compared to the GraCol-2006´s and FOGRA39/47 and the mainly differnce in the method M1-mesuaring respecting now the UV in light caused by the OBA´s in the paper). So it will takes time to work with them...

Yes, I know the problems with pressure that came with all the "innovations" like APPE, Color-server and so on, it´s a hard competition in our buisiness, and here also only the big one´s of the companies are equiped so well that is possible to satisfy all claims of the customers, i think there are not much differences in the whole world...

Of Course you are right: The best is to contact the american printer directly, but i´m sure everybody knows how it goes: On the one side are the grafic and prepress-people talking together and on the other side the decision to whom the job goes depends from the price or contacts of the management and will be made at least close to the end of the story, so that is not clear who has to talk with whom...

I do really enjoy talking here with people so far away from this place

Isn´t it strange: Compared with the last decades of the gone century now in this millenium we have finally so high and well functionabel tools and standards for offset printing, but things like PDF/x does not work in life, because the ideas behind are torpedoed permanently from mishandling by non professionels, so that the x (for "blind exchange") and the I (for international) in ICC will not work in practice...?

But it is not so, that nobody in the Americans do honour OI´s (OutputIntents in PDF/x)?


Ulrich

 

[Puch]

You can spare a lot of headaches if you repurpose your files before handing them off. As others stated, the usual workflow is to omit any profiles and avoid converting, to stay on the safe side. Of course, colors will shift as the inks, methods used in the US is somewhat different to the European practices. Only high-end printers will go into the hassle to repurpose your files, as they're the only ones who have the needed (very pricey) software and knowledge.

 

[Ulrich]

You can spare a lot of headaches if you repurpose your files before handing them off.

but you can cause new reasons for headaches, if you hand out a not fitting separation like Gracol2006-files for printing on uncoated or newspaper... ;-)

So, to prevent such hassle it is the best to get an information directly from the printer.

I mean, it is not only an american or europe method-problem at all...

Ulrich

 

[Kreso_Zagreb]

Dear Ulrich,

wouldn't the right way be contacting printer and/or prepress specialist with printers and talk through prep process (Color Management setup, Profiles...) before taking the last step which is sending the EU files to the US (generating PDF or submitting open files with all of it's content) or trying to convert something?

On the other hand I can understand dilema if one don't have original (source, raw, RGB) materials but only CMYK (asuming here that it will be printed out in plain oldfashioned CMYK) which is alreday prepared for EU printing "standard" and now it's supposed to be printed in the US.

What the rest of you colleagues think about this approach?

I read this forum a lot and I have to say that I find a lot of smart and experienced people within a branch asking or writing great and brilliant things. I really enjoy browsing thru some of the posts where I get to read a lot of brilliant ideas. Good job everobody! Really!

Thank you all for reading.

Best regards to all from Zagreb, Croatia.

Krešimir Bikić