Fingerprinting Suggestions

Skinflint

Well-known member
I am wondering what steps you would take if you were setting up, for the first time a CTP, Press and proofer.
We have a new CTP and EFI XF Proofer and need to fingerprint a 40" press. I know this is a very
complex subject but would like to hear how some of you have proceeded with this task.

What type of fingerprint targets have you used and what do you look for?
Do you start your fingerprinting with linear plates?

Help is appreciated.
 
In deed a easy question with not such an easy answer:
a few bullets points:
- Stick to the ISO standards !
- define the optimal Inklayer thickness (through Lab measurements)
- create the curves (on linear plates preferably)
- Check whether the output complies to one of the standard dataset (Fogra, Gracol, ...)
- Preferably use a standard profile (from Eci , Swop, Gracol ,..)
- If you have good reason not to comply to the standard, then a custom press profile can be made, based on a ISO12642-2 target (in US also called IT8.7/4-2005), but printed with compensation curves hat bring the dotgain (or NPDC) within the standards.

far from complete but it shows you at least the bigger steps to take.

regards

PGE
 
Press Test Form

Press Test Form

Hello, the "First" thing is Print a GATF Test Form Image on the Printing Press, then the Pre-press must produced "Production Compliant Imaged " plates -- REMEMBER pre-press must FIT the press parameters !!!!


Regards, Alois
 
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In deed a easy question with not such an easy answer:
a few bullets points:
- Stick to the ISO standards !
- define the optimal Inklayer thickness (through Lab measurements)
- create the curves (on linear plates preferably)
- Check whether the output complies to one of the standard dataset (Fogra, Gracol, ...)
- Preferably use a standard profile (from Eci , Swop, Gracol ,..)
- If you have good reason not to comply to the standard, then a custom press profile can be made, based on a ISO12642-2 target (in US also called IT8.7/4-2005), but printed with compensation curves hat bring the dotgain (or NPDC) within the standards.

far from complete but it shows you at least the bigger steps to take.

regards

PGE
Could you elaborate??

If you have good reason not to comply to the standard, then a custom press profile can be made, based on a ISO12642-2 target (in US also called IT8.7/4-2005), but printed with compensation curves hat bring the dotgain (or NPDC) within the standards.

What are the standard dot gains for CMYK?

- Stick to the ISO standards !
Where can I find these standards?

- define the optimal Inklayer thickness (through Lab measurements)
What determines the ink thickness to be optimal?

- Check whether the output complies to one of the standard dataset (Fogra, Gracol, ...)
Is this different than the ISO standard you mentioned above, or is this another stage?
When you say complies, to what do you mean and why?
 
Hello, the "First" thing is Print a GATF Test Form Image on the Printing Press, then the Pre-press must produced "Production Compliant Imaged " plates -- REMEMBER pre-press must FIT the press parameters !!!!

I'll disagree with that last statement.....Prepress proofing should be targeting a *standard* printing condition (ISO/Fogra or GRACoL/SWOP in the USA) by using the standard characterization data. The pressroom should be made to conform to this *standard* proof via plate compensation curves or perhaps device link profiles.

Bring the press to the (standard) proof, not the other way around! If you start by profiling the press and making THAT your proof "standard", you'll be chasing those presses with your proofing system from now to eternity! Never set your shop standard on the most variable piece of equipment in the plant.

:)

Regards,
Terry Wyse
 
Could you elaborate??
What are the standard dot gains for CMYK?

ISO12647-2 states Lab values for the different papertypes (independent fro, line screening rulings) as well as TVI (dotgain) per papertype and for 3 # screenings. All for the offset "commercial print" market. When the Lab values are correct (inklayer thickness is optimal) then TVI can be controlled to match the standard TVI values
For papertype 1 and for 60 L/cm this is 14% dotgain (on 50%) for CMY and 17% for K, in fact more precise Curve A for CMY and curve B for Black. (see image)
- Stick to the ISO standards !
Where can I find these standards?
you can purchase the ISO documents at www.ISo_Org
If you don't want to pay for this , you can find the same info in the Printmedia standard from BVDM , unfortunatly the English version is not updated since 2006 and as such misses the ammendment changes from 2007 to the official ISO12647-2 doc. I hope you can read German because the update of 2008 in German is OK.
have a look at: the BVDM website

- define the optimal Inklayer thickness (through Lab measurements)
What determines the ink thickness to be optimal?
The Lab values from the solid primaries and secondary colors. the aim values of these lab values can be found in ISO12647-2. (or in the Printmedia standard - only the German Printmedia standard contains the correct lab values)

- Check whether the output complies to one of the standard dataset (Fogra, Gracol, ...)
Is this different than the ISO standard you mentioned above, or is this another stage?
When you say complies, to what do you mean and why?
Complies means: the normative parameters should fall within the tolerances as defined in the ISO spec. The most important normative parametes are: Delta E and TVI . Grey balance is not normative but highly advised , Gracol has even built its calibration method predominantly on this parameter (through the NPD).

Skinflint, if this is all new to you, and you want to fingerprint your press, I strongly advise you to hire a certified color expert !

regards

PGe
 

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I'll disagree with that last statement.....Prepress proofing should be targeting a *standard* printing condition (ISO/Fogra or GRACoL/SWOP in the USA) by using the standard characterization data. The pressroom should be made to conform to this *standard* proof via plate compensation curves or perhaps device link profiles.

Bring the press to the (standard) proof, not the other way around! If you start by profiling the press and making THAT your proof "standard", you'll be chasing those presses with your proofing system from now to eternity! Never set your shop standard on the most variable piece of equipment in the plant.

:)

Regards,
Terry Wyse


Totally right ! If the press prints to the numbers, the proof simply needs to print to the same numbers.
 
Just wondering, is the purpose of "fingerprinting" the press intended to characterize it's current condition. Or are you intending it to align presswork to the proof.
I think there's a difference. For example fingerprinting may reveal mechanical issues, or ink transfer issues that should not be compensated for with curves but dealt with by a mechanic or ink vendor.
To me, fingerprinting a press is about data collection so the form that I would use would ensure that ink take off across the sheet is even. Also, the test form would not include images because they can compromise the data (and possibly the press operator :)).
Once you've acquire the data and analyzed it you can go about the business of aligning it to your target.

best, gordon p
 
An Echo from the Stone Age !

An Echo from the Stone Age !

Gentlemen and fellow "Lithographers"

I maybe just a "Fossil from the Stoneage" but I Repeat -----

THE PRESS "Still the largest variable, the press system's Ink, Water,Paper,Blankets, Pressures, Temperature and Humidity all impact the print quality"


Regards, Alois
 
If I want to do the fingerprint for packaging printing, what the standard should I follow. I mean the paper type which I used is not type1,2,3,4,5.
 
I'll disagree with that last statement.....Prepress proofing should be targeting a *standard* printing condition (ISO/Fogra or GRACoL/SWOP in the USA) by using the standard characterization data. The pressroom should be made to conform to this *standard* proof via plate compensation curves or perhaps device link profiles.

Bring the press to the (standard) proof, not the other way around! If you start by profiling the press and making THAT your proof "standard", you'll be chasing those presses with your proofing system from now to eternity! Never set your shop standard on the most variable piece of equipment in the plant.

:)

Regards,
Terry Wyse

Very good point...I highly agree!
 
If I want to do the fingerprint for packaging printing, what the standard should I follow. I mean the paper type which I used is not type1,2,3,4,5.

It depends on the printting technology. If it's coldset Offset and you sure it's not one the papertypes, then the base standard is IS2846-2,-2007, if its sheetfed offset or heatset web then it's 2846-1 2006. Both describe a procedure to define the optimal inklayer thickness on a refrence substrate (density if you want) to achieve the lowest DE compared to refrence values.

regards

PGe
 
You can conform to all the standards you like...bottom line is customer approval. I find the standards to be marketing hype. I've been in digital prepress for over 20 years working for high end separators and printers. I currently work in a sheet fed offset plant for a major folding carton company printing primarily boxes for the cosmetic, food and medical industries. Never once has a customer asked for any particular standard and I work with some major brands.

I understand the importance of repeatability and consistency, and standards do have their merit there, but "industry standards" don't work for everyone. They can give you a good starting point and reference, but I think it's really overblown. The creation of standards and consumables to conform is a profitable industry all its own.
 
It depends on the printting technology. If it's coldset Offset and you sure it's not one the papertypes, then the base standard is IS2846-2,-2007, if its sheetfed offset or heatset web then it's 2846-1 2006. Both describe a procedure to define the optimal inklayer thickness on a refrence substrate (density if you want) to achieve the lowest DE compared to refrence values.

regards

PGe

Although ISO 2846 is important to verify ink conformance up front, its less than a printing standard. Also note that the target Lab values for ISO 2846 are different than ISO 12647, so determining the lowest dE toward 2846 might be insufficient for production printing. The ISO12647 family of standards is fairly diverse in processes and paper types, and perhaps one is most appropriate for your packaging printing (depending on the process used). However, you might consider the G7 Methodology which would allow a common gray balance and tonality irrespective of paper type.
 
In my opinion, the transition to spectral specifications for packaging has been very awkward. The old Density and TVI specs were not paperboard specific, so they were very flexible, and you know what, they worked!

Unfortunately, 99% of our paperboards reside somewhere in between Paper grades 1-2 and 3. If a customer specs ISO12846-2, which they are starting to do, we will never hit those targets primarily due to the yellowness of our paperboard. So we are left with either making ISO12846-2 our target, and coming close, but not passing according to the standard. Or we establish our own spec. Either way, we are looking at a lot of time educating our customers. They hear "industry spec" and they expect us to hit it.

I'm all for spectral standards, but it appears most of it is driven by the commercial and digital print world, at best. At worst, it is as schenkadere said, "I find the standards to be marketing hype [...] The creation of standards and consumables to conform is a profitable industry all its own." For now I'll stick with my ISO2846 inks, on my yellow substrate, at density, and with 22% dot gain. That takes care of 90% of my color match problems. What's left?
THE PRESS "Still the largest variable, the press system's Ink, Water,Paper,Blankets, Pressures, Temperature and Humidity all impact the print quality"

In the meantime, I'll gather the data for my spectral targets.
 
In my opinion, the transition to spectral specifications for packaging has been very awkward. The old Density and TVI specs were not paperboard specific, so they were very flexible, and you know what, they worked!

Unfortunately, 99% of our paperboards reside somewhere in between Paper grades 1-2 and 3. If a customer specs ISO12846-2, which they are starting to do, we will never hit those targets primarily due to the yellowness of our paperboard. So we are left with either making ISO12846-2 our target, and coming close, but not passing according to the standard. Or we establish our own spec. Either way, we are looking at a lot of time educating our customers. They hear "industry spec" and they expect us to hit it.

I'm all for spectral standards, but it appears most of it is driven by the commercial and digital print world, at best. At worst, it is as schenkadere said, "I find the standards to be marketing hype [...] The creation of standards and consumables to conform is a profitable industry all its own." For now I'll stick with my ISO2846 inks, on my yellow substrate, at density, and with 22% dot gain. That takes care of 90% of my color match problems. What's left?

In the meantime, I'll gather the data for my spectral targets.

I'm with you. It's more dangerous terminology for uneducated customers to pick up on and expect the unreasonable.

We can't even get our mills to commit to stricter white tolerances...and we're a huge corporation with a lot of buying power.

I mean really...how can a self proclaimed consortium dictate something so subjective. Sure there is science involved, but bottom line is when ink hits the paper, it's all about the customer. If I say, well...we're hitting all the industry standards you requested and they say it's too red...then it's too red.

If the consortiums are on our side, then give away the information...don't charge me for it. After all...they're mostly made up of the industry hardware, software and consumable suppliers.
 
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...I mean really...how can a self proclaimed consortium dictate something so subjective. Sure there is science involved, but bottom line is when ink hits the paper, it's all about the customer. If I say, well...we're hitting all the industry standards you requested and they say it's too red...then it's too red.

The point would be that if your proof and press output are aligned closely with industry standards, than the customer might find they have very little to say. ;)

I do realize your point that "non-standard" paper offers up challenges that a given client demanding "standard" results might not be aware of. But go easy on the cosortium folks, most of whom freely offer their time and talent for the benefit of the industry with no financial gain. Also, the MediaStandard_2006 document from Fogra/BVDM and the G7 Specification from Idealliance are freely available.
 
I am wondering what steps you would take if you were setting up, for the first time a CTP, Press and proofer.
We have a new CTP and EFI XF Proofer and need to fingerprint a 40" press. I know this is a very
complex subject but would like to hear how some of you have proceeded with this task.

1. Linearize and profile your Colorproof to your chosen inkjet device (i.e. Epson), using the Color Manager.

2. In the proofing workflow of the EFI rip, set the "source" profile to GRACoL 2006. That profile can be obtained on the internet or newer versions of Photoshop, if your Colorproof doesn't already have it. Part of the challenge is terminology. EFI (and other software) call this the "source" profile, which is correct in some sense, but it is often more intuitive to think of it as the target or destination profile. This confusing terminology was half the problem for me in the early days of understanding color management. At any rate, set the source CMYK profile in Colorproof to GRACoL 2006.

Now the proofer rip and device will produce a correct proof that you can use as a target for the press.

3. Make a proof of a one hundred step scale of each color, 1% to 100%.

4. Create a press test form that is a scatter of 13 step scales of each color, 5%, 10-90, 95%, 100%. Best to align these around the cylinder for consistency within each scale, in other words, the 5-95 in line with the same ink key. There is no need for imagery on this test form, it only adds subjective second guessing to a portion of the process that should be done strictly by the numbers. A form with imagery can be done later to verify results.

5. Make linear plates of your test form, no curves applied. Print where ink film thickness is comfortable. The press room can make that determination.

6. Take the resulting press sheet, and for each color, measure the scales with a densitometer (density, not LAB values--important) and record the values (write them down). Doing averages is a good idea, from different areas of each sheet, and from different sheets. Also a good idea is to measure relative (minus the paper).

7. For each step of each color, find the matching density on your proof, using the SAME measuring device (this makes the process one of comparison, eliminating absolute values and any difference between measuring devices). For example, if you measure the press sheet and find that cyan at 50% reads a density of .40, then search the 100 step scale of the proof and find which one is closest to .40 in density, for example, 46%. This tells you that to get 50%, you need to add 4%. Starting from linear as the base, that means 50% should be 54%, not usual with ctp sharpening. Do this with all steps of all colors, and you have the data to build plate curves, one unique curve for each color.

The main barrier to this technique is differences in overall density, say the proof shows cyan at 1.23 and your press sheet reads 1.35. That will of course skew an attempt to compare scales. I have found it works well enough to factor the reading accordingly, so the 100% press sheet numbers match the 100% proof numbers. Then use those factored values to search and locate the correct percentage square on the proof's 100 step scales.

I have used this technique to successfully create plate curves that hit on the first try, time and time again. This technique is also one of the reasons I favor G7, because it works on a similar principle, and I had employed the technique long before G7 arrived. So when it did, I was pleasantly surprised to find it agreed with my methodology (using density to calibrate).
 
Fingerprinting

Fingerprinting

If I want to do the fingerprint for packaging printing, what the standard should I follow. I mean the paper type which I used is not type1,2,3,4,5.

It depends. This is an offset press, right? Running standard inks? What is so different about the paper? If it's only the color the best route might be to have someone edit the white point of a standard profile for that paper type to match that particular paper (e.g. coated/uncoated, bright white, etc.). This will be the reference profile for the proofer. If the paper is something really strange then a custom profile might be made, but try to avoid this at all costs--and the costs to do it right would indeed be very high.

Mike
 
It depends. This is an offset press, right? Running standard inks?

Uh well no. "Packaging" pretty well assumes flexographic printing, using rubber plates that directly contact the paper. It's kinda like letterpress, only with plates made of jello.

While a good flexo press can approach offset quality, most don't come close.
Ever see a pizza box, printed printed in black and red on brown recycled cardboard, with registration that might be within an eighth of an inch on a good day?
 

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