Fountain Solution Conductivity
- Thread starter ErnieLail
- Start date
[email protected]
Well-known member
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
Ernie,
Conductivity is a measurement for how much fountain concentrate to add to your press water system and monitor the changes during a press run to see how paper, alcohol or sub and ink may be affecting it. Let us say you are using a fountain concentrate that is buffered for Ph, in theory if you add one ounce or 9 ounces of the concentrate the Ph should not change, this is when conductivity comes into play. On your package of plates or your press manual or your ink supplier or your fountain concentrate they may recommend a certain range for Ph and conductivity and the meter will allow you to measure the water bottle to know how many ounces of concentrate to add. Let us say you measure your water source and it is 200uS and your plate vendor says our plates perform better at 1800uS. Add a little at time and measure until you reach the range they recommend. It is a tool to aid you in preparing fountain solution and keeping it consistent. Many big presses use chillers that monitor and change these problems.
OG
Ernie,
Conductivity is a measurement for how much fountain concentrate to add to your press water system and monitor the changes during a press run to see how paper, alcohol or sub and ink may be affecting it. Let us say you are using a fountain concentrate that is buffered for Ph, in theory if you add one ounce or 9 ounces of the concentrate the Ph should not change, this is when conductivity comes into play. On your package of plates or your press manual or your ink supplier or your fountain concentrate they may recommend a certain range for Ph and conductivity and the meter will allow you to measure the water bottle to know how many ounces of concentrate to add. Let us say you measure your water source and it is 200uS and your plate vendor says our plates perform better at 1800uS. Add a little at time and measure until you reach the range they recommend. It is a tool to aid you in preparing fountain solution and keeping it consistent. Many big presses use chillers that monitor and change these problems.
OG
Green Printer
Registered Users
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
Conductivity is a measurement of electrical flow capability. It has been used for years in the printing industry. With old circulating chemistry conductivity can be 500 to 40,000 and still work properly.
Conductivity can be a tool to measure but it sure isn't the deciding factor as to wether a fountain solution is too contaminated to work.
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
Conductivity is a measurement of electrical flow capability. It has been used for years in the printing industry. With old circulating chemistry conductivity can be 500 to 40,000 and still work properly.
Conductivity can be a tool to measure but it sure isn't the deciding factor as to wether a fountain solution is too contaminated to work.
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
Pat:
I don't think you have ever run with a conductivity of 40,000, perhaps you exagerate. I think Offset Guy gave Ernie a more useful answer. A typical example that I'm familiar with, the fountain solution is mixed three ounces per gallon of water, and the fresh conductivity is 1800. When the conductivity increases over time, from extracting junk from the paper, the rollers, the ink, the secondary smoke, whatever, when it increases to 2500, the press operators dump the system and make fresh fountain solution again.
A green solution to this is a technology called FloClear, somewhere down in Texas, but OEM'd by Prisco, where the fountain solution is filtered and recirculated. In this case, the fountain solution can last up to 6 months, so I've heard. Of course it takes a few "green backs" to get this "green solution".
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
Pat:
I don't think you have ever run with a conductivity of 40,000, perhaps you exagerate. I think Offset Guy gave Ernie a more useful answer. A typical example that I'm familiar with, the fountain solution is mixed three ounces per gallon of water, and the fresh conductivity is 1800. When the conductivity increases over time, from extracting junk from the paper, the rollers, the ink, the secondary smoke, whatever, when it increases to 2500, the press operators dump the system and make fresh fountain solution again.
A green solution to this is a technology called FloClear, somewhere down in Texas, but OEM'd by Prisco, where the fountain solution is filtered and recirculated. In this case, the fountain solution can last up to 6 months, so I've heard. Of course it takes a few "green backs" to get this "green solution".
John Lind
Cranberry Township, PA
724-776-4718
Green Printer
Registered Users
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
The last time I dumped my tank was April 2006. I do not have a flo clear because I do not need one. The only thing I am using for filtration are some 20 Micron filters. I have changed them once since April 2006. We print 300 and 350 lpi every day. If I was going to have any trouble it would rear its head with the Hi lpi screening. I would not recommend this unless you have control of your variables.
Thank you
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
The last time I dumped my tank was April 2006. I do not have a flo clear because I do not need one. The only thing I am using for filtration are some 20 Micron filters. I have changed them once since April 2006. We print 300 and 350 lpi every day. If I was going to have any trouble it would rear its head with the Hi lpi screening. I would not recommend this unless you have control of your variables.
Thank you
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
Green Printer
Registered Users
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
The extremely high reading of conductivity occurred running a job with about 26% coverage of magnetic black ink. The conductivity readings dropped to less than 10,000 in a few days. The point is everything still worked on all presses connected to the central circulator.
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
The extremely high reading of conductivity occurred running a job with about 26% coverage of magnetic black ink. The conductivity readings dropped to less than 10,000 in a few days. The point is everything still worked on all presses connected to the central circulator.
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
Paultheprinter
Well-known member
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
I think most angles have been covered on this already, i think conductivity is a great way to mix your fount solution and if you encounter any problems gives you a chance to check the uS of the tap water pre filteration and post as well as the concentrate, but as a overall indication of efficiency conductivity can be misleading, over here in the cold uk we run aprox 550-600 uS but this soon rises to 1500 within a week or two and this its still ok to run with. It is much easier to use PH as a guide for fount solution efficacy as once you reach a more neutral ph the gum arabic stops desensitizing the plate and you get long startups and poor cleaning of reverse outs.
I think most angles have been covered on this already, i think conductivity is a great way to mix your fount solution and if you encounter any problems gives you a chance to check the uS of the tap water pre filteration and post as well as the concentrate, but as a overall indication of efficiency conductivity can be misleading, over here in the cold uk we run aprox 550-600 uS but this soon rises to 1500 within a week or two and this its still ok to run with. It is much easier to use PH as a guide for fount solution efficacy as once you reach a more neutral ph the gum arabic stops desensitizing the plate and you get long startups and poor cleaning of reverse outs.
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
Just to add to the discussion, few basic points..
pH alone cannot help in deciding whether its time to change the fountain solution, because of the +*buffer agent*+ used in it, buffer agent maintains the nature of pH to a pre-determined level even if contaminants from paper and ink are picked up by the fountain solution.
Whereas if we talk about the conductivity, then it increases with the increase of contaminants, so conductivity can be considered as a deciding factor.
For example, if you start adding small amount of fount to water, the pH will start changing but, only till a certain limit, after that the pH is stabilized by the buffer agent. On the other hand the conductivity will increase with each addition.
So pH and conductivity both should be measured simultaneously.
Note- Attached file of graph may give some idea about the relation between the two parameters.
Just to add to the discussion, few basic points..
pH alone cannot help in deciding whether its time to change the fountain solution, because of the +*buffer agent*+ used in it, buffer agent maintains the nature of pH to a pre-determined level even if contaminants from paper and ink are picked up by the fountain solution.
Whereas if we talk about the conductivity, then it increases with the increase of contaminants, so conductivity can be considered as a deciding factor.
For example, if you start adding small amount of fount to water, the pH will start changing but, only till a certain limit, after that the pH is stabilized by the buffer agent. On the other hand the conductivity will increase with each addition.
So pH and conductivity both should be measured simultaneously.
Note- Attached file of graph may give some idea about the relation between the two parameters.
Paultheprinter
Well-known member
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
All that graph shows is the conductivity change when you add fount soloution. Ph is a great indictator of fount quality and a shift from 4.9 to 5.3 has a marked effect as which a change in 500 uS is hardly noticable on press. My point is when a fount soloution reaches PH 5.5 the gum arabic no longer can desensitise the plate and this happens at a specific point, depending on the type of contamination in the fount soloution this point could be at 1500 uS or 3000 uS. Conductivity is a useful tool for repeatable stable chemistry but for an overall guide to the founts efficiency i believe PH gives a more accurate representation, it might not tell you how dirty the fount is but it will tell you how efficient it wil be and thats most important to a press minder.
All that graph shows is the conductivity change when you add fount soloution. Ph is a great indictator of fount quality and a shift from 4.9 to 5.3 has a marked effect as which a change in 500 uS is hardly noticable on press. My point is when a fount soloution reaches PH 5.5 the gum arabic no longer can desensitise the plate and this happens at a specific point, depending on the type of contamination in the fount soloution this point could be at 1500 uS or 3000 uS. Conductivity is a useful tool for repeatable stable chemistry but for an overall guide to the founts efficiency i believe PH gives a more accurate representation, it might not tell you how dirty the fount is but it will tell you how efficient it wil be and thats most important to a press minder.
Atlee Yarrow
New member
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
When I ran small offset equipment I don't think that was ever an issue. In larger presses I think back... maybe once a month I had to check for it just to make sure the tap water was up to the demands. This was normally an issue brought up between the ink rep. and whom ever supplied metal plates which between them would come up with a "range" given to said Press Operator(s).
Basically keep the water trays clean and prewipe any fresh cut edges with a lint free towel (example C1S) if cutter blade is needing to be changed.
Edited by: Atlee Yarrow on Dec 24, 2007 6:27 AM
When I ran small offset equipment I don't think that was ever an issue. In larger presses I think back... maybe once a month I had to check for it just to make sure the tap water was up to the demands. This was normally an issue brought up between the ink rep. and whom ever supplied metal plates which between them would come up with a "range" given to said Press Operator(s).
Basically keep the water trays clean and prewipe any fresh cut edges with a lint free towel (example C1S) if cutter blade is needing to be changed.
Edited by: Atlee Yarrow on Dec 24, 2007 6:27 AM
Green Printer
Registered Users
Re: Fountain Solution Conductivity
Magnetic inks have iron or ancor steel or a combination of both powders. These powders are magnetic as well as electrically conductive. When these particles gets into fountain solution they can extremely increase the conductivity of a fountain solution mixture.
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
Edited by: Pat Berger on Dec 26, 2007 6:37 AM
Magnetic inks have iron or ancor steel or a combination of both powders. These powders are magnetic as well as electrically conductive. When these particles gets into fountain solution they can extremely increase the conductivity of a fountain solution mixture.
Pat Berger
Mercer Color
Edited by: Pat Berger on Dec 26, 2007 6:37 AM
the supplier
New member
keldrewett
Well-known member
I have seen one of the FloClear units.
They do a pretty impressive job but then again I don't know what they cost....
They do a pretty impressive job but then again I don't know what they cost....
Johnston Collins
Member
conductivity is the way to measure contaminants in your damp solution.
how quickly the electrical current can be passed through the water depends on how much calcium magnesium or lime is present in the water.
measure the solution when new, take a note of the conductivity, change the solution when the number increases by 1000 .
the pH value will not change because modern founts are buffered
alcohol will lower conductivity
fount will increase it
damp solution should be set at 10-15 degrees below ambient temperature
how quickly the electrical current can be passed through the water depends on how much calcium magnesium or lime is present in the water.
measure the solution when new, take a note of the conductivity, change the solution when the number increases by 1000 .
the pH value will not change because modern founts are buffered
alcohol will lower conductivity
fount will increase it
damp solution should be set at 10-15 degrees below ambient temperature
Green Printer
Registered Users
We check PH every day. It is usually 4.5 to 4.8. When you filter below 20 microns it is possible to pull the gum out of the solution. We have never added biocide. We have been doing this routine with the present circulator since 1997.
Green Printer
Registered Users
Working with suppliers who know the how and why is the permanent fix. There is no magic sauce or magic filter. This is not new.
Many suppliers make great mechanical fixes for just about any problem real and perceived. In many cases it is easier and much less costly to fix the why it is happening instead of fixing what is happening.
Determining which supplier you think who knows the how and why is what these forums are all about.
Many suppliers make great mechanical fixes for just about any problem real and perceived. In many cases it is easier and much less costly to fix the why it is happening instead of fixing what is happening.
Determining which supplier you think who knows the how and why is what these forums are all about.
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
re Fountain Solution
re Fountain Solution
Hello everyone, you must read the PDFs I posted in the - Ink, Substrate Discussion entitled "Press Founts --- Is there a Solution"
Regards, Alois
re Fountain Solution
Hello everyone, you must read the PDFs I posted in the - Ink, Substrate Discussion entitled "Press Founts --- Is there a Solution"
Regards, Alois
Last edited:
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