FSC approved paper - YOU CAN'T CALL IT THAT!

[Johntron]

The point here is that without COC, the next person in the chain cannot guarantee or prove the paper is indeed FSC Certified. That being the case, FSC can't let you make claims about the paper.

Reworded, if it any point the paper could have been secretly swapped with a different stock, intentionally or unintentionally, then it is not FSC certified.

 

[Craig]

Reworded, if it any point the paper could have been secretly swapped with a different stock, intentionally or unintentionally, then it is not FSC certified.

OMG now it's a paper conspiracy! Do you really read what you are typing? You are saying that because you are FSC Certified, there is no way, unintentional or intentional that you could possibly do a bait and switch with the paper. Just because your are "Certified" you are now holier than though? I would expect that you, the same as I, will keep our business practices ethical. If I need to prove a sheet to a client, I will invite them into my shop and they can watch it being loaded into the press, if they so desire.

Again no one has answered my questions, so let me put them plain and simple. I buy Domtar Lynx, a "Certified" shop buys Domtar Lynx, both come from the same Mill, sheeted off the same roll of paper, both are "FSC Certified" have the same wrapper with the same FSC logo, who knows maybe they both came from the same tree! What makes your paper different than mine? Other than the COC is "broken" as soon as it comes off the delivery truck (BTW who really, I mean REALLY cares about the COC?) and I can't NOR do I CLAIM to be "Certified"... nothing. IT'S THE SAME PAPER!!!! Aren't we both using the SAME product manufactured with the SAME sustainable practices?

Other than the fact that you choose to buy into the "Certification" and are now able to print a trade marked logo... nothing is different. To add in my own conspiracy... how do I know you aren't cooking the books and using some "other" paper? Oh wait, you get audited, we all know how that keeps everyone honest, just look at AIG!

Now I have a solution to the problem. Why not go one small step further. Certified companies can only buy super special certified paper with the COC, and all the fancy logo's. Using my above scenario, you would have "Lynx - Certified" and just plain Lynx. Force the mills into changing the paper specifications and their packaging and inventory control, so the rest of us who are not certified don't have the option to buy the super special paper. Of course, since there are more controls and special treatment for the super special paper, it will be more expensive. I'm sure your customers will be quick to pay what 15%, 20% more for the COC paper.

 

[jlazerus]

The FSC Chain of Custody Certification is part of a "guarantee" where anyone can track the paper (or furniture or building product) from end user to the actual sustainably managed forest from which it came. If I were a print shop that went to the expense and effort of becoming an FSC Certified COC user, the difference between my Domtar Lynx and your Domtar Lynx is that I can prove with documentation that we have printed the piece in accordance with COC rules. No, there MAY BE no physical difference, but the FSC logo and use of the logo has to be tightly controlled because the FSC themselves maintain a database of this chain of custody so that the person buying your printed product isn't being ripped off. It's actually the OPPOSITE of a conspiracy, an effort to control printers who might want to cheat. Don't like the system? Too bad, the system exists and you don't have to participate. Invent your own certification system.

The FSC is less of a scam than your union, by the way. You can (and should) use all the FSC paper you want, you just can't benefit from the work that they have done by using their logo, which is used as a tool to identify certified manufacturers. The reason the FSC exists is not to piss you off, it's to protect consumers (print buyers) from unfair dealing. Using the logo on any promotional material, including a website, is a competitive advantage for some markets (check your Pottery Barn catalog, or Nordstrom). Some print buyers are now requiring this from printers as part of their RFP.

 

[Craig]

I fully understand that I can't print the FSC logo, just as you can't print my Union logo. I fully understand that the magical chain of custody is broken because I am not FSC certified. No argument, no issues there at all. (BTW I'm not mad at all either) I also can prove with documentation that I printed a job on an FSC sheet of paper, big deal. The reason some markets are requesting FSC paper is because they caved into the special interests that started FSC. "You don't require our logo on your printed materials... we start a smear campaign against your company".

Three more questions that have come up.

1 - When is the mystical chain broken and why?

2 - If it's the customer purchasing the product after it has been printed, than why is that any more or less important than having the mystical chain broke at the paper distributor or even the mill?

3 - Isn't the whole concept behind all of the certifications to make sure the mills and those they are buying the pulpwood from are practicing sustainable methods. If so what difference does it really make after the paper is made? All we are doing is reassuring our customer that we really did buy a product that was made in an environmentally responsible manner.... correct.

Yes I may be skeptical, but I am attempting to make sence out of this whole thing. It seems like a bunch of folks just blindly bought into a concept and all of the sudden it became a reality that really makes no sence whatsoever.

 

[Keith]

I understand everything I've read in this thread about FSC so far. But I have one question, if the consumer demands certification, how come the printer must pay for it? If you buy a hybrid car, you the consumer will pay a premium over the gasoline-only counterpart. In fact, doesn't the government give companies tax breaks or credits for investing/practicing in clean technologies? I just read in my local newspaper that W.L. Gore (textile manufacturer) just got some $800,000 tax credit for energy efficiency or something. Can a print shop get a tax credit for being FSC? I think the FSC knows consumers aren't going to pay more for "green" print (because they don't love paper like they do cars) sooo, they figure they can rob us because consumers will take us by the balls. I feel sorry for the printers that are forced to increase their overhead because a customer demands certification.

I think I'm rambling on really. And I forgot what point I was trying to make. Aren't we off topice. Isn't this about copyright laws? Perhaps I'm unhappy about this FSC stuff for the simple reason that I am unable to afford it.

In another thread about this same topic, someone suggested that us printers should start our own FREE certification system. Well, I have a tag line for it-

"We don't kill trees, we make room for new ones!"

Sometimes, I want to say 'to hell' with trees and print everything on Strathmore 100% cotton!

 

[rbailleu]

I understand both side vary well. the solution as I see it is this. either dont use fsc paper due to their hypocracy/made up bs. or use it and dont list it as fsc certified. or become certified. I use the same arguement for unions. however if you are taking a description of a paper from a supplier and including it in your stock lists in a pull down menu. I hardly see a case for a lawsuit. if you are however putting on your website tag lines like "we use fsc certified paper" i would stop that. ITS LIKE saying I am a union shop when your not. of course no one would do that. that would be deceitfull

 

[Green Printer]

Interesting

Interesting

Until the paper is used by a FSC certified user it has not completed the required COC from raw material to end user.

With this kind of logic all paper labeled as FSC is just paper waiting to be used by a FSC user.

Legally the paper cannot be labeled on the cartons or skids as FSC because the chain has not been completed from manufacturer to end user.

It is legally impossible to specify FSC paper because it is has not completed COC until used by a FSC certified user.

FSC has created a legal paradox.

 

[rbailleu]

yes it is a funny quirky system. but people are paying for certification. that does not mean I will pay for it.

 

[Craig]

Until the paper is used by a FSC certified user it has not completed the required COC from raw material to end user.

With this kind of logic all paper labeled as FSC is just paper waiting to be used by a FSC user.

Legally the paper cannot be labeled on the cartons or skids as FSC because the chain has not been completed from manufacturer to end user.

It is legally impossible to specify FSC paper because it is has not completed COC until used by a FSC certified user.

FSC has created a legal paradox.

Then why is it labeled as FSC Certified from the mill? Why isn't the FSC label applied by the COC printer? It just makes no sence what so ever.

 

[meddington]

Legally the paper cannot be labeled on the cartons or skids as FSC because the chain has not been completed from manufacturer to end user.

It is legally impossible to specify FSC paper because it is has not completed COC until used by a FSC certified user.

FSC has created a legal paradox.

Not following you here. A COC certified operation can label their products as FSC certified, regardless of who the end user is. So a mill can sell paper labeled as "FSC certified" to a non-certified printer. That non certified printer cannot make or imply any claims of FSC certification, as the CoC is now broken. Only operations with an FSC CoC certificate are allowed to label products with the FSC trademarks.

 

[rbailleu]

so can you say that you buy fsc certified paper from fsc certified vendor. then not label it as fsc. no I guess you cant legally do that. I am sure that fsc is out writing a bunch of letters to people. could you put on your website a disclaimer that says we remove the fsc label so that the coc is broken by us so that you the customer don't need to worry about it. or we certified that coc of the fsc paper we bought for your green project was broken by us so that the fsc logo must be removed. the arguements are pointless. the only thing a customer should worry about is whether or not the printer is fsc certified or not. to go after the paper listing is silly.

 

[meddington]

so can you specify that you buy fsc certified paper from fsc certified vendor. then not label it as fsc.

Depends on what you mean by "specify" I guess. Per the problems of the original poster, without a CoC cert I don't think you can specify "FSC" in any way without getting FSC's trademark lawyers irate.

 

[LoriMil]

Chain of custody all the way to the end user....doubtful the end user is FSC certified, don't you think? So the chain is broken by the very people who demand the certification in the first place.

Laughable...just laughable...

 

[Craig]

Did L. Ron Hubbard get involved in this some how? It sounds more and more like Scientology!

So the purpose is not about sustainable practices, but more as a certification to pads an organizations pocket. Just to make sure I am clear, the FSC logo on my paper label means nothing at all if I am not FSC certified. Therefor there is no reason for me to purchase paper with an FSC label, maybe I'll look for paper made from rainforest trees!

 

[meddington]

Did L. Ron Hubbard get involved in this some how? It sounds more and more like Scientology!

So the purpose is not about sustainable practices, but more as a certification to pads an organizations pocket. Just to make sure I am clear, the FSC logo on my paper label means nothing at all if I am not FSC certified. Therefor there is no reason for me to purchase paper with an FSC label, maybe I'll look for paper made from rainforest trees!

Where I'm at, I have to pay for recycling. I see no immediate or tangible direct benefit from it, I pay a monthly fee, and its a pain in the neck sorting and cleaning what I would otherwise throw away. But I do it. Others don't. Depends on where your priorities are.

There are some legitimate concerns with forestry certification schemes, but big picture, they have had a positive impact on management practices. The fact that there is still a demand for unmanaged pulp, or self self "regulated" logging makes the case for the need for organizations like the FSC.

 

[turbotom1052]

the entire green movement???

the entire green movement???

i wonder if the founding fathers of the green movement had even an inkling as to just how commercial this well intentioned initiative would ever become. It didnt take long at all to figure out that the early players in this entire business were just that... "PLAYERS" Its not just the FSC that has turned some well intentioned ideas into nothing more than a way to make money, but the entire green movement. I am quite honestly disgusted with all of its hypocracies. I worked for a company that latched onto this thing early on and it was very apparent that it was nothing more to them than a marketing ploy. Its not intended to say that there arent some sincere participants in this movement but i think that at this time its mostly smoke and mirrors, and market share and all the other bull that goes with corporate America or Insert country here>___________. I feel that the entire meaning of this thing has been diluted by all the not so well intentioned objectives of many companies that have jumped on board. Its sad to see a company that advertises its participation in all that is "GREEN" then turns around and dumps its old fountain solution down the sink because its too expensive to have taken out of the company and disposed of properly. Ive seen this with my own 2 eyes.
So lets all just go on thinking that things are all good with this entire green movement and if we continue to chant the "GREEN" mantra then we can go home at night, and kiss our children before bed, and claim to really care while during business hours we change our tune and paticipate in this farce.
I am by no means a tree hugger, just a hater of this ongoing hypocracy!!! This hypocracy is no different than the one where a company puts into place strict sexual harasment policies and then you find out that the CEO was dipping his wick into the company inkwell. My moral high horse is not meant to offend people just to hopefully invoke a little thought and perhaps even debate.

 

[Mark Wiedener]

It's all about the way that you phrase things. For instance, McDonald's claims to use 100% beef in their burgers. This is not a lie, they just don't tell you how much of that 100% is actually placed in each burger. Bit of a reverse example, but just a way to explain that there are many ways to say things. Present yourself as an environmentally savy printer and provide a link without mentioning the product you are using directly by name on your site. You are not using the logo but the client can get the correct information if they choose to view further. Good luck.

 

[arsenal123]

I understand both side vary well. the solution as I see it is this. either dont use fsc paper due to their hypocracy/made up bs. or use it and dont list it as fsc certified. or become certified. I use the same arguement for unions. however if you are taking a description of a paper from a supplier and including it in your stock lists in a pull down menu. I hardly see a case for a lawsuit. if you are however putting on your website tag lines like "we use fsc certified paper" i would stop that. ITS LIKE saying I am a union shop when your not. of course no one would do that. that would be deceitfull