Fuji violet plates with a Heidelberg CTP system

[jfryw]

My boss came to me today saying he is thinking of trying the Fuji Violet Economax V plates. We have always used Heidelbergs Saphira Violet plates in our CTP system.

Has anyone had experience with the Fuji Violet plates in a similar workflow and what changes/problems have you faced?

 

[csm20]

Prosettor exposure times and vacuum time, press profile would probably not work the same with fuji, the plate size and thickness would need to be the same.
Plus all the chemistry would need to be fuji, and you probably could not get the raptor processor clean enough not to contaminate the new fuji chem.
Heidelberg has us all by the short hairs with this plate issue.
I to have researched for cheaper plates and chem,
Heidelberg Saphira violet plates/chem are in actuality made by Agpha.
If i were you I would stay with heidelberg plates and chem it's not worth the trouble and possible cost.
Just my opinion and we all now what opinion are the same as.
everyone has one.
Good luck.
CSM20

 

[jfryw]

Does anyone know if you can use the Fuji plates with the same yellow lights like the Heidelberg Saphira plates that we currently use?

 

[rbailleu]

are they quoting you cheaper pricing. I had konica in to talk about there processless plates. they would through in a processor.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Given a recalibration is done almost any plate can be ran on a CTP as long as they are they same type (violet for violet, thermal to thermal).

You do need to use the chemicals from the same plate manufacturer and they usually give you the developer unit you would switch out.

Heidelberg does not make any consumables so you really aren't using Heidelberg, I think they are Agfa as already mentioned.

 

[maxon]

Given a recalibration is done almost any plate can be ran on a CTP as long as they are they same type (violet for violet, thermal to thermal).

Not that simple. In some violet recorders you need to make some hardware modifications e.g. replace a filter in the optics to match the plate sensitivity range, there is a certain difference between Fuji, Agfa and Kodak. The different coating type may also require a specific plate processor configuration - single replenish system vs. dual, a certain brush scrub type and/or rinse brush etc.that is because every plate manufacturer came in with his own set of requirements regarding accreditation.

You do need to use the chemicals from the same plate manufacturer

True

... and they usually give you the developer unit you would switch out.

Probably true for some dealers but not as general rule.

 

[Ritter]

Fuji has experience using their plates with the HDM Prosetter/Raptor combo. You'll need a hefty cleanout, then Fuji chemicals and expertise (with the Raptor and the Prosetter settings) to make the transition.

You are however opening yourself up to a possible vendor 'war' if issues come up. Fuji will blame HDM, HDM will blame Fuji. Another thought might be to call in an Agfa rep and get pricing (which shouldn't require any transition on your hardware). How about suggesting to your boss to call your Heidelberg rep and see if you can get better pricing with the leverage of numbers from Fuji and Agfa? I always tend to think in prepress it best to keep one vendors system with one vendors consumables.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Hold on guys...

There may be some technical issues preventing an easy switch.
It's best to first work with the incumbent vendor (HDM) to under-
stand the options available.

Is the laser a 5mW, 30mW or 60mW?

If 5mW - it is only capable of exposing silver-based plates.
There may be some laser upgrades ($) available if necessary.

If 30mW - it can expose silver-based plates, as well as the
faster photopolymer plates. (I'm not HDM - so I don't know
what the qualification list is - again check with HDM.)

If 60mW - it should be able to expose - with plenty of latitude -
both silver and photopolymer plates.

However, the two processing technologies are completely different -
there would need to be a processor change-out if going from silver
to photopolymer.

Then, as we are on the cusp of seeing violet chem-free photopolymer
plates for commercial applications, perhaps it might be a good time to
wait and see what HDM has to offer.

I'd suggest that you work with HDM - they know best your imager,
available plates and best fit for your application.

Regards,

 

[jfryw]

As time goes on more information comes to light. The plate deal includes a new Fuji processor so now its finding out if our Prosetter can handle different plates.
Would it be possible to get plates from Fuji, image them, send them back to be processed and then returned to try out on our press, SM74. Is that even a consideration.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone, very helpful.

 

[maxon]

As time goes on more information comes to light. The plate deal includes a new Fuji processor so now its finding out if our Prosetter can handle different plates.
Would it be possible to get plates from Fuji, image them, send them back to be processed and then returned to try out on our press, SM74. Is that even a consideration.

Yes I would do that, recalibrate the laser output and give it a try. BUT, sending the plates out to be processed ... ? should discuss with fuji about image latency time.

 

[hagar]

As time goes on more information comes to light. The plate deal includes a new Fuji processor so now its finding out if our Prosetter can handle different plates.
Would it be possible to get plates from Fuji, image them, send them back to be processed and then returned to try out on our press, SM74. Is that even a consideration.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone, very helpful.

I have not worked with the prosetter but have worked with other violet devices and what you propse is unlikely to work. as changing a plate type would usually require multiple plate outputs to set correct laser power and then rip calibrations before you could get a decent linear plate.
Also once imaged plates should be processed within an hour

 

[londonbob]

are they quoting you cheaper pricing. I had konica in to talk about there processless plates. they would through in a processor.

Stop and think about what you just said. Konica talked about their processless plates and they would throw in a processor? what is that about? The Fuji Pro V plates, do they have a processor for their processless plates? Their EcomaxxT thermals do not need a processor. I too am curious if the Fuji V plates would work in the Heidleberg platesetter and know that their is no chemistry conflict to worry about . All that would need to change would be the exposures? I cant imagine being trapped into buying and using only one type of plate for a CTP device. That would be like buying a car that could only run on one kind of consumable that could only use a certain kind of propane to run it. My luck the company that supplied the propane would go out of business.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

<snip> The Fuji Pro V plates, do they have a processor for their processless plates? </snip>

Just to clarify: yes, they do... and it includes a preheat oven, and chemistry (under the guise of "clean out solution"). This is why Fuji is now classifying them as "Lo-Chem" instead of processless, which is a more accurate term. You'll never get rid of all processing with violet plates because of white-light sensitivity... you have to do SOMETHING to stop the plate from being exposed when you bring it to the pressroom.

Thermal non-process plates (like Kodak Thermal Direct and Ecomaxx-T) can survive in white light (albeit for a limited time at the moment) so that you don't need that expense and headache.

Kevin.

 

[SteveAgfa]

FYI -

Agfa will be imaging and cleaning-out live
Azura TS plates at Print '09. With no such
concern about white light, or latent image,
prospects can see first-hand why of the "big 3",
Azura makes-up 79% of the chem-free or
processless plates in the market.

Regards.

 

[KevinC@EFI]

<snip>of the "big 3",
Azura makes-up 79% of the chem-free or
processless plates in the market.</snip>

Steve - you must have learned math at a different school than I did... I really fail to see how you can support such a number. Do you have anything to document such a specific (and incorrect) claim?

Kodak is unfortunately very reluctant to publish exact figures, but I can assure you that you've underestimated our Thermal Direct success by a significant multiple.

Kevin.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Kevin:

The figure I posted is from the same
industry sources that we both provide
data to. Of course this is M2 volume.

Regardless, we're showing Azura TS
running at the show for those who'd
like to see the market leader live.

See you there!

 

[J]

Steve, could you explain what "the same industry sources that we both provide data to" means and what "M2" volume means for us non-vendors?

I've tried getting market share for processless/low chem plates on the web however all the published data appears to be just product release info from the vendors (actually just Agfa) . The info provided by PacPrint 09 in Australia is quite typical of what's available ( PacPrint Guide: Prepress | PacPrint 09 | Events - "Globally, Agfa is the leader in chemistry-free CTP with more than 3000 installations worldwide and 80 per cent market share.").

Would appreciate any clarification you can provide.

To Kevin at Kodak: Since you dispute what Steve at Agfa claims, perhaps you could correct his claims by providing us with your market share numbers for the various vendor offerings?

best regards J

 

[SteveAgfa]

J:

There are several sources that vendors belong to (like NPES), or subscribe to, to get industry reporting. The data shared in the May 2009 press release you pointed to was from a vendor-contributed and subscribed report coming out of the UK, published in March 2009, reflecting 2008 audit returns for participating vendors including the "Big 3". As this was a WW report, results can vary from market to market, and even since the report window."M2" reflects that this report was comparing volume (meters squared, or square meters), not counting installations.

My original point: once again, at Print '09, we are imaging and gumming Azura TS live. Actually, this might not be "once again", since I believe last year we were showing our original (circa 2004) Azura plate at GraphExpo. This would be a first for the US market, and certainly the first since we've had local production of Azura TS on US soil.

Regards,

 

[KevinC@EFI]

To Kevin at Kodak: Since you dispute what Steve at Agfa claims, perhaps you could correct his claims by providing us with your market share numbers for the various vendor offerings?

I would love to J - but the reason that I dispute Steve's claim is that there is no reliable source for the global market size of only "Chemistry Free / Processless" plates... we do submit data to an independent group as Steve says, but nothing that granular. If we're not providing Thermal Direct sales indepently of other digital products, then Steve's 79% number is coming from somebody's guesswork... and doing some simple backwards math, that guesswork has to be WAY off the mark. (I would suggest that maybe this number was based on just Agfa/Fuji sales, but for confidentiality reasons they don't report any category with less than 3 vendors participating).

Steve, unless Azura outsells all other plates in your portfolio combined, you need to revisit your market sizing numbers.

Kevin.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Kevin:

Don't shoot the messenger.

Instead, come see Azura TS, the best-selling chem-free/processless plate,
via our live imaging and gumming presentation at Print '09.

Regards,