Fuji Xerox v3100i verse Km C4070

[BigSi]

Hi there.

I have posted this previously, but I thought I'd open up again as it's getting very close to crunch time.

For the sake of this discussion let's assume service is the same on both.

Which machine is better? -

Consistent registration.
Colour consistency.
Rolling good solids.
Ease of use/set-up. Full width array verse Accurio Flux? (I think this is what it is called)
Basic Finisher. D6 verse FS-532

Xerox +cheaper (approx. 20%)
KM + newer machine (brand new). Click rate very slightly cheaper. 3100i approx. 3 years old.

Your thoughts are appreciated. ta Simon

 

[kslight]

Ricoh an option in New Zealand?

 

[Gianni_S]

Hi!
I believe that everyone here has its own opinion based on its own story with different brands.
Here is mine: I switched from Xerox to KM and I am still super happy!I had a V80 and were only problems.
We finally bought a KM 3080+… And all my problems are fixed.
I am happy with that machine, overall quality is good. Production is quite fast and hardware is reliable.
Is the perfect machine? I don't think so, I run into some trouble lately but they were fixed without many problems.
From my experience Xerox won't see me again for my entire life… But it is me.
I sugget you to test both machines and compare also the rip/software part, if possible.
Then decide by yourself which one seems to fit your needs.

G:

 

[namelessentity]

Hi!
I believe that everyone here has its own opinion based on its own story with different brands.
Here is mine: I switched from Xerox to KM and I am still super happy!I had a V80 and were only problems.
We finally bought a KM 3080+… And all my problems are fixed.
I am happy with that machine, overall quality is good. Production is quite fast and hardware is reliable.
Is the perfect machine? I don't think so, I run into some trouble lately but they were fixed without many problems.
From my experience Xerox won't see me again for my entire life… But it is me.
I sugget you to test both machines and compare also the rip/software part, if possible.
Then decide by yourself which one seems to fit your needs.

G:

You went from an entry level press to a production press. That's a completely unfair comparison. I'm not defending Xerox, but of course the machine rated for 10x the volume is going to perform better...

 

[BigSi]

Ricoh an option in New Zealand?

yes. but relatively small in the market. (concerns regarding service). My gut feeling is the c4070 is a low mid range machine while the v3100i is high mid range machine (if this makes sense). Anyone out there correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[pippip]

You went from an entry level press to a production press. That's a completely unfair comparison. I'm not defending Xerox, but of course the machine rated for 10x the volume is going to perform better...

Are you sure? V80 is just slightly older than 3080 but both would be same model range with extremely similar specs.

 

[namelessentity]

Are you sure? V80 is just slightly older than 3080 but both would be same model range with extremely similar specs.

The V80 says it has an 80,000 duty cycle vs the 3080 at 864,000.
KM 3080 / V80

 

[kslight]

yes. but relatively small in the market. (concerns regarding service). My gut feeling is the c4070 is a low mid range machine while the v3100i is high mid range machine (if this makes sense). Anyone out there correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn’t run this KM, I had a c6085. I couldn’t wait to get rid of it as I’ve gone into elsewhere. The registration was pretty good though (our Ricoh is better). The service was awful. But I’m not in New Zealand so not really relevant. What machines are your competitors / trade partners using, would probably be the thing to determine.

 

[TJPrinter]

yes. but relatively small in the market. (concerns regarding service). My gut feeling is the c4070 is a low mid range machine while the v3100i is high mid range machine (if this makes sense). Anyone out there correct me if I'm wrong.

I would agree with this based on the speed and recommended monthly volumes. The c4070 seems to line up more with the Versant 280.
c4070 recommended monthly volume 32,500 - max 758,000
3100 recommended monthly volume 250,000 - max 1.2 million
The Versant 4100 is now listed at a max of 1.8 million.

 

[Ynot_UK]

All those “maximum” numbers quoted are ludicrous and could only be achieved in lab conditions running round the clock shifts for a month with technicians and plentiful spares waiting in the pit to react immediately.

 

[pippip]

yes. but relatively small in the market. (concerns regarding service). My gut feeling is the c4070 is a low mid range machine while the v3100i is high mid range machine (if this makes sense). Anyone out there correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes that's about right. What volume are you currently averaging?

 

[BigSi]

Averaging about 45k a month. On the whole I have been reasonably happy with my v2100. The only real issue in the number of "BTR" I go through. (2-3 per month). I'm hoping they have fixed this problem with the v3100i. My philosophy with purchasing digital press's has always been better a 2year old Lexas than a brand new Corolla. (this is of course assuming you are running with a FSMC).

 

[jwheeler]

My 2 cents: Stick with the Xerox. You’re already familiar with the operation of Xerox’s, you already have the proper power supply available, you have familiar contacts for servicing it, and it’s lower cost. Either one will handle your volume.

Just a side note, the Konica equivalent to Xerox’s full width array is the IQ-501. It requires purchasing an additional component (approx $11,000 US) which adds 2ft of length. Accurio Flux is KM’s version of Fiery Command Workstation combined with Impose/Compose. We use it at my shop since we have all KM controllers.

 

[TJPrinter]

The 2nd BTR is still an issue, they haven’t changed anything except modified some NVM settings to help extend the life a bit. If you ran only uncoated stock, I would imagine that you would take the BTR to it’s rated life. More coated stock and more heavy coated stock is the problem that shortens its life.

At this point I have more confidence in Fuji coming up with a solution to the 2nd BTR problem than Xerox. If the 2nd BTR is the only real issue you have, you may be better sticking to what you know is an issue to what you don’t know will be an issue.

 

[azehnali]

I have switched all my machines to the metal BTR and all go to end of life
all actually dont fail but get overfilled with toner so it needs to be changed
hopefully fuji will come up with the metal ones
Xerox doesnt manufacture anything

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

The 2nd BTR is still an issue, they haven’t changed anything except modified some NVM settings to help extend the life a bit. If you ran only uncoated stock, I would imagine that you would take the BTR to it’s rated life. More coated stock and more heavy coated stock is the problem that shortens its life.

At this point I have more confidence in Fuji coming up with a solution to the 2nd BTR problem than Xerox. If the 2nd BTR is the only real issue you have, you may be better sticking to what you know is an issue to what you don’t know will be an issue.

Was talking to my tech yesterday and he indicated Xerox is working on improving the 2nd BTR and is training interested customers in how to replace the 2nd BTR because they are needing replacements so often. I think it's a good way of approaching the problem while they work on a better solution. Obviously it'd be better if this problem didn't exist, but COVID screwed up many companies and I think Xerox did an amazing job in the way they handled the ultimate solution to the drum problem. It was of course incredibly unpleasant to go through all of the drum issues then, but now we quite literally have drums that last forever compared to the original drums. Hopefully something similar can happen for the 2nd BTR.

 

[TJPrinter]

I have switched all my machines to the metal BTR and all go to end of life
all actually dont fail but get overfilled with toner so it needs to be changed
hopefully fuji will come up with the metal ones
Xerox doesnt manufacture anything

Fortunately, the 2nd BTR is a very simple change. I had a 2nd BTR with the metal roller (rebuilt) and it did last longer but not close to end of life. The metal roller created two new problems, envelopes would get creased on the back side, and the coating from NCR would stick like crazy to the metal roller. The solution was to remove the BTR with the metal roller when printing NCR or envelopes but it just wasn’t worth the effort since the life wasn’t extended enough.

Do you have a part number for OEM metal style 2nd BTR that I can pass along to my tech and if any NVM’s were changed? Greatly appreciated!

My tech and another Xerox dealer both told me that the only Versants that get close to end of life for the 2nd BTR are running uncoated stock.

 

[BigSi]

Yes I do change the 2nd BTR myself. The only issue is getting them. As fuji don't treat these as a consumable mostly the tech has to physically drop off. Don't get me started on keeping a spear one in stock. I made the mistake of letting the tech see that I had one a while back, you should have seen how fast that one was taken off me.

 

[pippip]

That's terrible, I always have at least one spare btr on site for our v80. I just order like a consumable no issues at all.

If you're in contact with the sale rep on the 3100 I'd start dropping hints that this is a critical issue and at the moment it's main reason you aren't interested. Push to say the only way you'll purchase a xerox is if this is added to your contract.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Yes I do change the 2nd BTR myself. The only issue is getting them. As fuji don't treat these as a consumable mostly the tech has to physically drop off. Don't get me started on keeping a spear one in stock. I made the mistake of letting the tech see that I had one a while back, you should have seen how fast that one was taken off me.

The conversation with my tech indicated that keeping a 2nd BTR on hand would be Xerox's intention with this program.