Future of VIOLET CTP?
- Thread starter nshadab
- Start date
nshadab
Active member
That means the future of the VIOLET as QUALITY OUTPUT is not good?
nshadab
Active member
You mixed things up, it's exactly the opposite : better like never before !
oh really....i think i must involve KEVIN here...to put more light here...
i was under impression THERMAL still wins the race....
and VIOLET are faster, but i am not aware of their quality....people here say violet is good for newspaper industry only.
put your more notions here meanwhile i involve kevin here.....
KevinC@EFI
Well-known member
Thanks nshadab - it's kind of like being asked to comment on science vs. religion.
Luckily, it's not quite as controversial as that. A few facts:
In the past, it was generally easier to make a visible-light (violet) system faster than a thermal system - mostly because the plates are photo-sensitive (like film), and required much less exposure / laser power to expose. However, over time the available power in laser diodes has gone up, the reliability of them is extremely high, and the cost has plummeted. Today, we can deliver thermal CTP's as fast as violet - over 300pph for newspaper applications, and >60pph for 8-page commercial CTP. The speed diference is a thing of the past.
Violet CTP systems are almost exclusively "internal drum", using a single gaussian laser spot to expose the plates. This fact is the main reason Thermal systems are higher quality than Violet systems. For Kodak, it goes one step further because of the our SQUAREspot thermal technology (only Kodak). The laser dot on a 2400-dpi gaussian device is actually about 1600dpi, so the dots overlap each other. Gaussian dots are always bright in the center, and fade towards the outside like a "bell curve". Those partially-exposed edges are what's sensitive to variation in the production process - sensitive to changes in exposure energy, plate sensitivity, preheat uniformity, processing conditions, and so forth. The narrower and sharper that edge, the less variation you'll see. SQUAREspot images with 10,000dpi dots (in a 4x4 grid to achieve a 2400dpi printing dot) - versus the 1600dpi gaussian dot. This makes SQUAREspot 6x less sensitive to process variation. Yes, we have data to back that claim up.
That resolution and consistency is what allows you to push the boundaries of what you do. It can help you reduce costs for "normal" print work by making things much more consistent and reducing the need for careful oversight. Or, it can allow you to do much more challenging print work consistently.
Don't forget the advantages of daylight operation with many Thermal plates, as well as the fact that violet plates (including the "Chem-Free" type ones) need a preheat oven while most commercial thermal plates don't.
I can go on and on - but if you look at higher quality, larger, and more industrialized printers anywhere in the world, the vast majority of them are using and buying Thermal systems. Violet hardware is cheaper. But - you get what you pay for.
Kevin.
nshadab, I can't help wondering why did you invoke Kevin repeatedly. There are many other thermal platesetter manufacturers. Besides Kodak is not the most successful of them in sales figures, Screen is. Of course Kevin does what he knows best to advertise Kodak products, he's paid for.
I absolutely subscribe to ajr before in challenging anyone to notice the quality difference on a printed product. Heck, show anyone two such plates violet and thermal at 2540 with 175 lines and you won't tell them apart even using a 100x microscope. I've done just that, more than once. Squarespot ? Come on.
Oh, and one more thing there's no ctp manufacturer to offer thermal only. All of them have violet in their portfolio. Yes including Kodak who bought ECRM News platesetters repainted and badged as Kodak for newspaper market. Makes me proud using the exact same ECRM News machine to output plates for several years already for several sheetfed machines, not only coldset. Yes it has a bit larger laser spot size hence it doesn't do fm screening but quality wise it's more than adequate. At a fraction of any B2 thermal, as Kevin says.
I absolutely subscribe to ajr before in challenging anyone to notice the quality difference on a printed product. Heck, show anyone two such plates violet and thermal at 2540 with 175 lines and you won't tell them apart even using a 100x microscope. I've done just that, more than once. Squarespot ? Come on.
Oh, and one more thing there's no ctp manufacturer to offer thermal only. All of them have violet in their portfolio. Yes including Kodak who bought ECRM News platesetters repainted and badged as Kodak for newspaper market. Makes me proud using the exact same ECRM News machine to output plates for several years already for several sheetfed machines, not only coldset. Yes it has a bit larger laser spot size hence it doesn't do fm screening but quality wise it's more than adequate. At a fraction of any B2 thermal, as Kevin says.
KevinC@EFI
Well-known member
Actually Maxon, I absolutely agree with you. However, that's actually not the point at all.
A printer can do amazing print work with a violet CTP. Heck, they can do amazing print work with analog plate making and wipe-on plates.
The point is - can they do it repeatedly. Can they do it cost-effectively. Can they do it every time. How efficiently can they do it? This is where the value of SQUAREspot helps. It reduces the variation from plate-to-plate, day-to-day, and job-to-repeat - allowing you to reduce costs, or push the boundaries of print in a reliable fasion. The difference is magnified exponentially as you get into higher linescreen or FM work - but is easily seen even at 175lpi.
The attached charts are real data - showing the day-to-day variation of a gaussian device and a GLV device versus SQUAREspot with all other factors being equal. The difference is real - and it can result in huge differences in quality as well as cost efficiency where it counts: the pressroom.
Attachments
fiatlux
Well-known member
I've never heard any complaints about day-to-day plate variation with violet CTP. If it was as bad as you're saying then I think it would be a common complaint. In fact, what people have said on this forum, and others, is quite the opposite. I don't know how you created those charts, however, I don't think they show real world production performance of violet CTP. Are the blue and green dotted lines supposed to be violet CTP?
In any case, it appears that violet CTP is good enough for Kodak since they sell it under their name.
Perhaps a violet CTP user can comment on this?
FL
In any case, it appears that violet CTP is good enough for Kodak since they sell it under their name.
Perhaps a violet CTP user can comment on this?
FL
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We are running Agfa LAPV violet plates, with very good success. The press operators love them. The print quality is very good, and the plates never show any signs of wearing out. Our shop is a high end commercial print shop, where quality counts, not some sort of newspaper. My only complaint is the amount of maintenance that is required for the plate processor.
-Sev
Seems to me that these users are happy regardless of the lab tests. No complaints on predictability from them. By the way, pretty broad statements. Violet, thermal....I know violet CtP that have 10 micron laser spots size and I know violet CtP that have 20 micron spot size. I know thermal CtP that have laser with 10 micron spot size and some with 20 or 17 micron. I have seen thermal laser that are as big as a bread box and I have seen laser that are several inches long. I have seen very long optical paths on thermal and very short optical paths. I have seen both technologies with very good optics and some with not so good optics. I have seen plates and chemistry cause changes with both technologies. I have seen good plates and not so good plates in both technologies. I have seen violet at 300 line screen and also with 20 micron stochastic. Yes, they were at printers in production. I have seen thermal go beyond this. Remember, it take two to tangle, the CtP laser system must have the quality to image this and the plate must have the resolution. Bottom line is there are allot of variables, not all CtP are created equal, do your research on hardware and plates, keeping in mind what you want to achieve. With the right CtP, plates and proper maintenance, both technologies are capable of providing very high quality and stable output.
nshadab
Active member
he is the one, who backed up KODAK 800 platesetter (thermal). so i wanted to have his views about this.
dont you feel after kevin this thread is much informative...i personally think so..
nshadab
Active member
which one is better with your personal/professional views?
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Decision
Decision
Hello nshadab,
You have read marktonk's summarize , the decision is yours - just Make It
Regards, Alois
Decision
Hello nshadab,
You have read marktonk's summarize , the decision is yours - just Make It
Regards, Alois
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nshadab
Active member
Yes, he made some good point here.
i am going to start with production house (plate processors house) in india. so with my research i opted for thermal...and looking for either kodak or Heidelberg. i still have to workout on both which one is better and cost effective.
Armya Inc
Well-known member
In my opinion, the cost of Service and Maintenance for Thermal CTP specially the laser is high, plus the Thermal laser is unstable compared to the violet. Specially GLV Systems needs a Service Tech to look after the alignment and maintenance of the system. Not to mention the banding issue, background toning and other plates' issues specially with earlier version of GLV Systems.The cost of the Thermal Laser is high.The maintenance and downtime for Violet Carriage is low or I can say it is maintenance free in most cases. The violet Laser lives longer, the plates are free from Background toning , banding and other issues. The Laser is stable and the quality of the plates are great! .Sure Silver Halide Plates users use 2 different chemistries, Processor needs more maintenance but this can be ignored when they have to go through the cost of changing a $50,000+ Laser. The Internal Drum Systems like Agfa Galileo has added to quality of Violet plates by not having vibration due to the spin of the external drum systems . Let's do not open the issue of focus and Auto focus and the problems associated with external drums here. The registration and focus of internal drum systems are also another added values.
In any case, Violet in still ahead of the Thermal Systems for the quality, downtime, service , maintenance and Spare Parts' cost specially the laser. I also think Agfa Galileo System is still one of the best CTP systems in the world.
Perhaps, Kavin in right according to his Marketing Charts, but I can't agree the thermal systems are better than the Violets as I have been directly involved with Installation, service and maintenance of both systems .
Farshad
In any case, Violet in still ahead of the Thermal Systems for the quality, downtime, service , maintenance and Spare Parts' cost specially the laser. I also think Agfa Galileo System is still one of the best CTP systems in the world.
Perhaps, Kavin in right according to his Marketing Charts, but I can't agree the thermal systems are better than the Violets as I have been directly involved with Installation, service and maintenance of both systems .
Farshad
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SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Nshadab:
If you're opening a plate service bureau, then poll your audience and see what the plate requirements are.
If it's a 1 million impression run, or a harsh UV environment, then a baked thermal plate like our P970 might be your best fit.
However, if you are servicing typical sheetfed commercial printers, then a chem-free plate like Azura might be a good fit.
I fear you are more concerned about the imaging technology rather than the plate requirements.
Given plate/audience requirements, then engine/plate decisions will come easier.
As you will no doubt benefit from a strong local integrator, supplier and support organization, I'd lean heavily on their advice.
Regards,
If you're opening a plate service bureau, then poll your audience and see what the plate requirements are.
If it's a 1 million impression run, or a harsh UV environment, then a baked thermal plate like our P970 might be your best fit.
However, if you are servicing typical sheetfed commercial printers, then a chem-free plate like Azura might be a good fit.
I fear you are more concerned about the imaging technology rather than the plate requirements.
Given plate/audience requirements, then engine/plate decisions will come easier.
As you will no doubt benefit from a strong local integrator, supplier and support organization, I'd lean heavily on their advice.
Regards,
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