GMG versus Black Magic from Serendipy

[loustique20]

We are looking to expand our shop by adding 3 more 7900 Eson. We are actually using GMG ColorProof 4.5 for our 6 Epson 7800.
Black magic was called to my attention. I was told it was way cheaper and as effective as GMG.
I wanted to know if any of you have any experience, good or bad, with Black Magic, and if it as great as my contact told me!
Thanks all!
Karine

 

[Hopkins Printing]

Hi loustique20,

We have BlackMagic and like it pretty well. So far, every issue we have had with it was fixed with a settings or preference tweak. The only thing I can say from a new user perspective is that the GUI might be a little overwhelming at first. If you go with it, the guy who will likely be involved in the install is very knowledgeable!

All the best,
Jon Morgan
Hopkins Printing

 

[whoami]

Hello,

I'm curious with what you decided to go with. We used GMG for a while for 1 printer and I really hated it. We threw that rip away and decided to use BlackMagic. We are now driving 9 printers with 1 BlackMagic rip at no extra cost per printer. We paid around 3 grand for it and it paid for itself 100 times over. We have it running on a 8 core MacPro though, which cost more than the rip software itself. The UI isn't very intuitive but once you get a couple of hours of training and a couple of days of getting to know it I think it's a great rip. I would pay triple its price if I were in need of another license.

-Adam

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Rips....

Rips....

Karime -

(Caveat.....my compnay was the original GMG distributor in the US from 2003-2006. We are currently EFI's largest global distributor and also operate our own inkjet converting facility.)

we see all RIPs in 2009 as being extremely similar. while maybe not obvious at first, there are subtleties that factor into decisions like the one you are facing now. changing RIPs can be a huge undertaking as there are many factors to consider:

- new media profiles
- training/support
- compatability with your clients and printers
- vendor longevity, etc.
- core RIP technology (PS vs. clone)

GMG is an excellent product - especially in its new version 5 flavor. You have already passed the first hurdle with GMG.....getting it installed.....as it is (relatively speaking) one of the more complex RIPs out there. That being said, once you get it "dialed in", it works and is extremely stable. BUT....it does have a niche and that is squarely in contract inkjet proofing for litho and packaging.

Going forward, i see the following issues as being important in RIP decisions:

1. Any new RIP simply must have the Adobe PDF Print Engine kernel in it. GMG and EFI have this today, as well as an alternate kernel that can run as weel. (GMG is some "ghosscript" while EFI is Adobe CPSI).
This is important mainly because of the rapid adoption of: PDF, JDF, CS3/4. A PDF Print Engine will be less prone to processing errors with complex blends, transparencies and spot colors.
2. If it aint client/sever architecture, why should I buy it....? Come on now.....why do we need more servers on the production floor? Give me a server to put in a rack and I will show you clients on the shop floor that simply run smoother with less clutter and better security.
3. How many printers can it drive from one license? 9 printers like someone says above.....?....well, that might work for some but they aint all running at once I assure you.
what works best is when a RIP can actually take advantage of a quad processor and actually do 4 things at once. that = productivity.
4. Support.....sadly, RIPs are the most support intensive element of an enetrprise-class inkjet system. That's why most RIp compnaies sell media. without that revenue annuity, RIPs would be a loser for all vendors and dealers. Most dealers do a hack job and let the vendor do all the presales and support.
5. Media strategy - does your RIP vendor lock you into their paper strategy? many do....even GMG....and their paper lists for $1.45 sq.ft; almost 50% higher than comparable brands.
6. Is your dealer going to cut you a deal?
7. Does your RIP goive you and PR mileage at agencies and printers? GMG, CGS and EFI do.....Blackmagic...?....maybe in the newspaper world. as for photo market.....not so much.

ALL RIPs, with the correct profiling, can ALL produce consistent high quality results. The IPA Shoot-outs proved that 4 years in a row.

You need to answer some questions to get better info and come to a better decision. It will also allow you to buy from a position of strength.

1. How many printers do you intend to drive?
2. How much paper do you use per month?
3. How many operators want to use the sytem?

Epson has OEMed EFI Colorproof XF for a reason.

It has been optimized to drive the new 7900 and 9900 better than all others. This is not puffery, this is fact. There will be those who will not want to realize this as their companies wer bidding on the same OEM contract and lost to EFI.

Please let me know if you would like any specific info.
Good luck...
Ian

 

[loustique20]

Hi Ian,
Thank you for all the info, and all the good advices.
But I was a bit lost in the tech info!

Any new RIP simply must have the Adobe PDF Print Engine kernel in it.

What does it mean?
Also, we want to keep our GMG (we are happy with it, now that we know how to use it!!), but we were thinking to use the other RIP in parallel for the newer Epson. Is it recommended? Or I am looking for trouble?
We are a prepress shop, mainly printing fashion commercial jobs. Color consistency and quality is our top priority.
Karine

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

PDF Print Engine

PDF Print Engine

Karine -

(Est-ce que vous etes francaise?)

The Adobe PDF Print Engine is the latest version of Adobe's RIP platform that is licensed to companies like EFI, etc. It will do a more consistent job when processing PDF files or native CS3/4 files.

There have always been 2 basic RIP platforms for inkjet and CTP:

1. True Adobe Postscript
2. "Clones" that are usually based on a Global Graphics or "JAWS" implementation.

GMG, up until v5.0, used a clone RIP.
In their latest version, they (GMG) offer both.

as for your latest decsion....well, you will not go wrong with either RIP - GMG or EFI.
To drive multiple 7900 or 9900s, the EFI RIP will be much less expensive and, yes, Epson did choose EFI as a RIP partner when they developed the new 900 series printers. However, the Epson version of the EFI RIP contains a very complex configuration that is overkill for 95% of the customers out there.

You can go to our web site to see an overview demo of an EFI RIP.

Chromaticity | EFI Colorproof™ XF 4.0

We also have online training for RIPs and profiles for all RIPs for our paper. We have about 40 GMG users that use our paper today and they save over 45% vs. GMG.

 

[whoami]

Well if you are looking for ease of use then BlackMagic is probably not as user friendly as it should be. If you are looking for an inexpensive rip that has excellent color control and that will drive all your printers with no problem then I would go with BlackMagic 3K plus an iMac 1200 that 4200 dollars. We installed BlackMagic at one of our customers who doesn't know too much about rips and he had a really hard time with it for about 2 months. We went down to his place and trained him and got him familiar with the rip and he has not complained ever since.

The main things to watch out for using BlackMagic is that it does not handle files with transparencies very well. We just send an X1a to get around this. It has a few issues with gradients. It has accurate spot color duplication but it does require that the separation be named exactly the same as in the color library.

If you have someone willing to do the initial set up then you won't have to touch the rip for a few months before you have to recalibrate.

GOOD LUCK!!

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

for point of reference......

an EFI Fiery XF RIP with 3 printer drivers can be had for about $3K.
all ICC profiles for media can be downloaded. all you do is an iteration on site.
install cam be done via webex. We have done hundreds that way.
we also have 50 online learning modules that customers can use at their own pace.

our intent is to "de-mystify" RIPs, installs, training, etc.

 

[loustique20]

Hi Whoami

The main things to watch out for using BlackMagic is that it does not handle files with transparencies very well. We just send an X1a to get around this. It has a few issues with gradients. It has accurate spot color duplication but it does require that the separation be named exactly the same as in the color library.

What kind of gradients? Will it handle well gradients made in photoshop (ie background, skin...)? We do not do packaging or spot color (or ever so rarely)

 

[tbuccini]

Only the facts

Only the facts

Hi Karine,

I generally just lurk here and don't usually post much on the boards, but I feel a bit compelled to clear a few things up that might help you. Being a Vendor, I will try to refrain from intentionally marketing our industry leading "ProofLine Inket Media's."

I will start by debunking the "Myth" of the need for an Adobe CPSI. There are many benefits to be had by not paying royalties to Adobe. One might even quickly conclude that if your not using Adobe, you are behind the times, I couldn't disagree more.

- If you are stuck with an Adobe core, you are dependent on them to fix a problem. You and your RIP manufacturer are left hanging till 1. They determine it is a problem and 2. they decide to fix it.

- Up until recently the Adobe CPSI RIP most inkjet guys were using processed 1 file at a time. BlackMagic will do 2X per core. Having 16 files RIP simultaneously on 1 box is nice when a user sends a 200+ multipage .pdf and clogs most other RIP's. If 16 is not enough, add a slave for about 1/3 the price and offload the processes on another box... Mac, PC, Linux. Runs the same on all three.

- If your processing Post ripped files, IE: 1-bit's, Rampage, Nexus, etc., this so called "Clone engine" does them 2-4X as fast as the competition.

- Blends, transparencies, oh my... The latest 16 bit version of the RIP does all of this stuff just fine. If we run into a bug, we pick up the Bat phone and talk directly with the developers. Overnight fixes are pretty routine if needed.

- 1 printer, 2 printer, 3 printer, 4. Pick a family with Blackmagic and thats what you get. Unlimited, from a 3800 to a GS6000, and everything in between. What does this mean. This means that if your hardware can support it, your printing to a bank of printers anywhere in the world that's connected to you. Yes, print to them ALL at the same time. Adobe charges per/device. This is also probably the same reason most of these RIP's don't offer soft-proofing... as they haven't figured out how to charge you for it.

On to the next "Myth" of Most inkjet RIP's are basically the same. Serendipity has been developing their own drivers for a long time and has lead the pack with N-Color support before it existed on any Epson. While some people may be lead to believe that Epson has been working exclusively with EFI to develop the x900 series, I kinda chuckle knowing that BlackMagic was driving it before anyone. I am however, surprised to see how much of the competition has rolled over and submitted 100% to the Epson SDK methodology, especially in this niche market. Ask to see a 200LPI dot proof and you'll know exactly what I am talking about.

-While our testing has only been done with our fantastic OBA FREE, Fogra Certified media, I can tell you that if your RIP is using this new Epson "black Box" you are using upwards of 30%+ more ink than you would be with BlackMagic. Forget the price of media, at $300/cart x11 carts on a x900 printer... you do the math.

- Most Rip's probably don't allow you to import a template of your imposition, and de-impose to a laser printer and or a smaller inkjet printer to get just the proofs you want.

- Most Rip's don't allow you to use special inks in the printer to create film positives/negatives and proof with the same printer.

- Most Rip's won't let you drive the new x900 printers in true CMYK mode, This is a problem if you need to get them to match existing x880 printers.

Ok, Last one and I have to get back to work. "Support". Since becoming a distributor for Serendipity, my job is very similar to that of that of the Maytag repair guy. Things just work. In fact, selling upgrades to someone who is completely happy can be tough. Every system we sell with our media is guaranteed to pass any current printing standard. We provide dealer training and support with all of the necessary paper profiles. We have even turned away dealers that could not commit to the training requirements to guarantee our 100% successful install record.

Anyhow, I hope I straighten out some of the misconceptions about Blackmagic.

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

There are also many "real reasons" why some RIPs have a 2% market share and others have a 30%+ market share.....;-)

All of the main RIP vendors (GMG, CGS, EFI) have support offices in the US.
While just "picking up the phone" may sound great in a forum thread, in reality, the other end of that phone may be in another hemisphere.

Just to clarify.....RIP roayalties to Adobe cost RIP vendors less than the price of a discounted 13" roll of Proofline paper....;-) As Adobe also tends to have other products that creative professionals use (CS, Acrobat, etc.), it sounds a little odd when their RIP implementations are questioned - especially when some vendors provide 2 flavors of RIPs with the same package - Adobe PDF and clone or Adobe CPSI. (GMG and EFI)There are reasons why Kodak, EFI, Agfa and others rely on Adobe technology.

There are also real reasons why Epson has chosen to OEM the EFI product and not one of the clone RIPs for the 900 series. It might be nice to think that a boutique RIP compnay down under has a leg-up on the global incumbents for drivers. In fact, just imagining that fills me with optimism and glee.......;-)

Sadly, it's just not the case. Driver technology makes or breaks RIP implementations.
Although they (Epson) have been successful with Colorburst, it is only a $250 option ($1000 on the GS6000) and certainly cannot compete with entrprise RIPs to drive multiple printers.

"If your processing Post ripped files, IE: 1-bit's, Rampage, Nexus, etc., this so called "Clone engine" does them 2-4X as fast as the competition."

This statement is strange and would require objective data to substantiate. Last I heard of any RIP speed debate, it was 1997....;-) That horse is in the barn.

It is 2009. RIPs need to be:

- simple to install (can be done remotely)
- simple to train (online curriculum)
- simple to use (for everyone)
- simple to support (doesnt matter if it's adobe or clone, these OEMs arent a factor in support.)
- open and willing to use all medias

Contrary to what some distributors may choose to believe, the main reason why many CTP and inkjet RIP suppliers chose clones in the past had more to do with coding and programming that it did with price or feature set. JAWS and Harlequin RIPs had a nice code-set that could be easily programmed. With Adobe CPSI, you needed serious programmers who knew the ins and outs of the Adobe kernel.

all that has changed with the PDF Print engine. In fact, it is so easy to implement, I would guess that you will see others switch to it just like GMG did. This will require RIP compnaies to do almost a total re-write from the clone code.

Troy, when do you think CGS will make that move?
In order to support FGS USA, that may be mandatory as Screen has certainly used the new platform successfully.

 

[edwinb]

To answer your question of GMG versus BlackMagic I think there are a few suggestions here but nothing that would swing your decision.
Could you install both on free trial and test one against the other? GMG Dealers can give a trial I know and if you use the oem media there is no calibration issues with gmg and i assume Blackmagic also. after your test switching to a cheaper or common media with your other printers will not be wasted effort.
I would be interested in the results if you do because the gmg is well known for production stability and you use it so Blackmagic has something to beat.
Edwin

 

[ASM]

Let's help the lady and not get bogged down in the decade-old infighting over RIPs eh?
Ma'am you have GMG ColorProof 4.5. Upgrade to 5 and consider the ColorServer version if you are adding printers. You know how to use it, you have a relationship with the reseller and tech support and GMG is right up there at the top on color accuracy and can edit individual colours without skewing the ICC profile.
Color is critical, you say, and you won't find better when it comes to color accuracy than GMG, who wrote the original CM for the Iris proofer back in the 90s. The only equal I'd say is CGS Oris ColorTuner.

Blackmagic is a fantastic Rip and the de-imposition feature is to die for - proof a whole magazine into a stapled 'dummy' from the imposed files. But it promotes itself mainly as a dot proof and I'm sorry; when dot proofing on BM, you can kiss your fractional color accuracy goodbye. It's okay on contone.

And no, I have no affiliations to GMG. I actually am more alligned to EFI's ColorProof XF - aka Best Rip once upon a time. It's great for the apps I'm involved in but this lady needs to make a decision good for her business and then move on. I'd go GMG.

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

ASM, I couldnt agree more.
We are the distributor for EFI in the US and we do not want to be commercial at all here.
I also worked at EFI for 8 years and want to keep these posts narrowed in on helping those who seek guidance, not commercials.

 

[stargate]

Karine,

I used to have BlackMagic and after research and testing I switched to GMG. BlacMagic interface is much harder to use when you compare to gmg o5 and with gmg you can have multiple printers look the same. Try to do this with BlackMagic. BlackMagic is cheaper than any of the rips because you just pay once for "epson license" that's true. BlackMagic has great screened proofs also but it is not so great in contone proofing and it is geared towards newspaper industry, impositions and softproofing. The only gmg competitor in your case is CGS and CGS as gmg has per printer license fee. As someone mentioned before gmg is great system with great support in USA out of Boston not in Australia. New gmg version 5 is even better and easier.

Derek

 

[tbuccini]

ASM, I couldnt agree more.
we do not want to be commercial at all here.

Fell free to use that edit button and delete your previous sale pitch then.

Thanks for jumping in AMS, I don't have all day to respond to all that.

Back to the original topic:
It has been pointed out that all the RIP's can get you to color. The problem I see is that the ink-sets are radically different. While many of the standard targets/images used in the industry don't immediately show you this, you will realize it on the first job you get burned on. Last I heard, GMG does not give you the tools to create custom MX-3's for N-color devices like the x900. Unless you plan to use their media, your hands will be tied to to this non-editable (MX-C). Someone correct me if I am wrong. I have however, verified this on the HP's with CMYKRGB.

If GMG has a custom MX3 and can drive the printer in CMYK only mode you will be much better off IMO getting these x900 printers to match the x800 printers. If GMG relies on the Epson "black box" you will start to see the problem most other RIP vendors are seeing. You can linearize CMYK and not CMYK-OG.

Blackmagic will let you do both. You can get your new printers aligned to the old ones and not have your hands tied. Plus, by being able to actually linearize your OG, you can guarantee consistency.

If you really want to make things trick, you can help me on a pet project which puts "Vivid Magenta" in the x800 printer making it further consistent with the x880 and x900 printers.
The x800 Magenta is RED. The x880/x900 Magenta is, well Magenta.

Lastly, what file format are you using and what is your front end. The reason I ask is that if you are using pre-ripped data, you might see huge benefits in speed and have guaranteed file integrity. For front ends that can provide unscreened ripped data this is a big plus. The general consensus on dot-proofs is they don't match as well as contone. This is the case with all Halftone/Dot RIP's including the High-end $100K+ ones that everyone hangs there hats on.

Anyhow, I hope this info helps you make an informed decision. Like most others, we do offer demo's and remote support/setup. We can also provide custom printed samples.

 

[whoami]

Hi Whoami



What kind of gradients? Will it handle well gradients made in photoshop (ie background, skin...)? We do not do packaging or spot color (or ever so rarely)

It will handle gradients from Photoshop great!! In fact, if you know what you're doing, you will get really smooth transitions. It's the vector gradients that come from indesign or illustrator that give it problems. I hear that BlackMagic 4 is coming out soon. Maybe they have fixed the few issues that they do have, and hopefully haven't introduced new ones.

-whoami?

 

[tbuccini]

Karine,
I used to have BlackMagic and after research and testing I switched to GMG. BlacMagic interface is much harder to use when you compare to gmg o5 and with gmg you can have multiple printers look the same. Try to do this with BlackMagic.
Derek

From a user stand point, the interface is very easy to use. Not sure what version you had, but it is completely customizable to fit your needs. If you are speaking about the workbench side of things, then yes, it is much more complex. The tools are endless. But, what most people don't realize is that these tools are not available on other RIP's. These are the tools that allow you to create a perfect Printer/Paper/Ink combination. To keep things easier, GMG and others have not opened this up. This can be both good and bad.

Something these tools do in-particular is allow you to adjust for printhead variation/degradation over time. This is critical for aligning a pool of printers without iterating adding a metameric deviation. This allows for a perfect visual match, followed by Delta E's below device consistency.

BlackMagic has great screened proofs also but it is not so great in contone proofing and it is geared towards newspaper industry, impositions and softproofing.
Derek

I would have to disagree with you on the contone quality and point you back to past IPA proofing roundups as well as any system we have sold with the built in verification tools. There are many variables that can cause bad quality and a blanket statement of "not so good" really isn't fair without an explanation.

The only gmg competitor in your case is CGS and CGS as gmg has per printer license fee. As someone mentioned before gmg is great system with great support in USA out of Boston not in Australia. New gmg version 5 is even better and easier.
Derek

Could you explain how CGS would be her only other option? Serendipity Support is done here in the U.S., I am not sure where the misconception came about. In the event that a developer needs to get involved, we still have all the normal tools that keep people going these days. Remote support, VOIP, Cars, planes, etc. My apologies for your experience with the product being anything less than perfect. Unfortunately, your purchase didn't go through our network.

 

[edwinb]

Something these tools do in-particular is allow you to adjust for printhead variation/degradation over time. .

as all the other rips mentioned here do?

edwin

 

[loustique20]

Hi everybody, I am pleasantly amazed by all the wonderful help and advises I received. You guys rock! I can see that some of you are pro GMG, EFI or Black Magic. It seems that all those RIP are doing great jobs. So because of the overwhelming responses, I wanted to ask a couple of questions and add clarifications from my part.

interface: Ease of use for a new RIP is not my top priority, as I am used to GMG 4.0, which I think was never user-friendly and counter intuitive. But I agree with some of you, I would enjoy an easy to use RIP for once.

Profile/media: My only problem with GMG is that it takes a lot of time to profile a new paper (that is not GMG media), and create new MX4 and 5. My clients are mainly fashion photographers, and ad agencies that cater to fashion magazine (and they have their little preferred media). They all want this and that, which make my life difficult. How fast, realistically, can other RIP create profile media, and align to printing standards?

Standards: So I need to be with all the classic printing standards, as well as being super color consistent for long periods of time. Dot proofing (especially in Europe) is disappearing fast. Will the US follow this trend soon? How the others RIPs handling the new printing standards?

matching: If I go with another RIP, how hard will it be to linearized to my ongoing GMG profiles/settings? Especially that the 7900 series have the OG inks? Will others RIPs disregard those 2 colors for the dot proofing?

verification: I know that each RIP have the option to verify proof (ProofControl, EFI Verifier...). I already have ProofControl, would I need to get a new one if using another RIP?

Demo: my vendors are willing to let me have a demo of Black Magic, EFI (and CGS if I wanted to, but I had some experience with them that didn't end well few years back), and I'am sure that GMG will let me try 5.0 for free if I ask nicely.

What do you think? Makes sense?
MERCI!!

Karine