GMG versus Black Magic from Serendipy

[Ian Mackenzie]

Fell free to use that edit button and delete your previous sale pitch then.

Yes, Troy, thanks for that. You're handling the sales pitch just fine w/o any other contributions....;-) Let's keep this helpful and, just because you are or are not a vendor (or print provider), does not mean that you are any more or less qualified to express a relevant opinion.

There are many perspectives that can add value to discussions and all approaches should be appreciated. We all should know that there are very few absolutes and our opinions are strictly our own. I appreciate your focus on time constraints as I, too, do not have time to address spin-doctored, Blackmagic voodoo speak....;-)

Anyway.....

As I have maintained throughout all my RIP threads, we beleiev that most RIPs are, in fact, created equal. You may like a BMW, I may like an Audi.....the next person may like a Mercedes. (German RIPs, German car anology.....;-) If you read what Karine said originally, and understood what her compnay may be looking for, then perhaps Blackmagic may be a great solution. Who knows....?

This is what WE BELIEVE to be key elements in RIP decision making today. (below) This is our opinion only as there exists few "facts" in this thread with the exception that ALL RIPs are fundamentally good.

1. We believe that client/server architecture is very important. Why? So that you can install your server app on a rackmount or desktop computer and stick it in a nice cool closet with your router and other appliances. Cisco and other companies tend to agree on this. This also enables you to deploy an unlimited number of client workstations anywhere in your facility with all production staff that is printing files.
2. We believe in the PDF Print Engine as the future platform for all RIPs. EFI, GMG, Kodak, Agfa, Screen and others are all in agreement here.
3. We believe in online training as a compliment to a customer's learning process.
4. We believe in elegant, easy to use GUIs where all processes can be accessed in under "2 mouse clicks".
5. We believe in fisrt class tech support where customers have access to knowledgable techicians with an escalation process.
6. We believe that customers should decide if they want a server to run on a Mac or a PC.

Karine, be careful with the "free trial" demo thing. You still need to learn the application and that takes time.

Whomever is selling you the media for all of your printers should be bending over backwards to help you through this maze.

Yes, GMG can be a challenge, but it is a great product. As you are adding 3 more printers, ask yourself how much $$ it will cost to do so. (My rough guess is $6,000 list).

As you you will be wanting to drive 7 printers total, then figure out how much an alternative RIP would be. (EFI, CGS, Blackmagic.......whatever.) Please keep in mind that almost every "new: RIP vendor or dealer can give a significant discount off of a new RIP if you trade in your GMG RIP. If you put your new RIP on a quad processor computer, you may only need 2 RIPs total to drive all 7 printers productively at peak volumes.

As to your questions:

- Profiling ease....: only you can be the judge here. I suggest that you ask your reseller to set up a webex for the different RIPs and you can see for yourself. For us, we have an online demo of EFI RIPs that can be seen here:

XF-Website_Demo

- Standards (like GRACoL and SWOP, I presume)......: all RIPs can address this. However, SWOP or GRACoL "certified" systems mean that it consists of a RIP, printer and paper. We are a paper convereter we have profiles for GRACoL and SWOP for EFI RIPs that can be dowmloaded from our web site. ICC profiles for all other RIPs, including GMG, are available upon request.

- Matching.....: negotaite this service with the vendor from whom you buy the paper and RIP. make it part of the "deal".

- Verification.....: each RIP uses its own method. However, I have heard a rumor that the IDEAlliance may actually have a product to address this. We will see.

- Dot proofs.....: In Europe, inkjet has become the new standard. In the US, we are moving more slowly as some "old school" buyers and printers still want to see a dot. I believe that GMG and Black magic have the best solution if you want to see good, hard dots. However, this can be deceiving unless you are ripping 1-bit data that also goes to your platesetter. Otherwise, the CTP RIP re-RIPs your data and your dot proof is less accurate.

Karine, si vous voulez que nous vous assistons avec une evaluation gratuite, veuillez nous telephoner a notre bureau. Nous avons 5 our 6 vendeurs (et "resellers") a New York qui peuvent vous aider facilement. Ils vendent des autres produits....et la concurrence aussi!!!...;-)

Merci.
A+....Ian

 

[meddington]

interface: Ease of use for a new RIP is not my top priority, as I am used to GMG 4.0, which I think was never user-friendly and counter intuitive. But I agree with some of you, I would enjoy an easy to use RIP for once.

A very intuitive rip (i.e. Little or no training needed) is the colorburst rip. I wouldn't put it on par with GMG necessarily, but definitly intuitive.

Sometimes additional capability and functionality come at a cost of additional complexity. Training and support are then key.

Profile/media: My only problem with GMG is that it takes a lot of time to profile a new paper (that is not GMG media), and create new MX4 and 5. My clients are mainly fashion photographers, and ad agencies that cater to fashion magazine (and they have their little preferred media). They all want this and that, which make my life difficult. How fast, realistically, can other RIP create profile media, and align to printing standards?

The speed at which you can create profile is largely dependent on your measurment device...and your own comfort level with rip operation. What are you using for measurement?

Standards: So I need to be with all the classic printing standards, as well as being super color consistent for long periods of time. Dot proofing (especially in Europe) is disappearing fast. Will the US follow this trend soon? How the others RIPs handling the new printing standards?

Ill go out on a limb here and state the all rips mentioned will proof successfully to a given standard.
Dot proofing: why bother. Fabric printers: proof contone and print stochastic and let the dot proof die.

matching: If I go with another RIP, how hard will it be to linearized to my ongoing GMG profiles/settings? Especially that the 7900 series have the OG inks? Will others RIPs disregard those 2 colors for the dot proofing?

Be not concerned with matching GMG proofs per se. Be concerned With matching whatever print condition you need to proof toward.do that successfully and matching issues should be minimal...though if your using different substrates and measuring instruments, watch out!

Extra wide gamut inks won't necessarily improve a match to fogra39, for example, but will help with spot color matching or expanded gamut print conditions.

verification: I know that each RIP have the option to verify proof (ProofControl, EFI Verifier...). I already have ProofControl, would I need to get a new one if using another RIP?

ProofControl is its own entity and should function independently of the rip. Just need to make sure you use compatable colorbar. But if you expect to interface with an onboard spectro, talk with your potential vender.

Demo: my vendors are willing to let me have a demo of Black Magic, EFI (and CGS if I wanted to, but I had some experience with them that didn't end well few years back), and I'am sure that GMG will let me try 5.0 for free if I ask nicely.

Demos are good, but your often running them with scant training to get an idea of the features offered. As such, capable rips can seem complex.

 

[edwinb]

I can see that some of you are pro GMG, EFI or Black Magic. It seems that all those RIP are doing great jobs.

Robust comments on the forum dont necessarilly reflect the installed base/ number of users- GMG & EFI have massive installed base

interface: Ease of use for a new RIP is not my top priority,

The GMG interface is familiar to you and the new version is more user friendly and would be the easiest option for you- you will recognise quickly the underlying structure of the rip which is very similar

My only problem with GMG is that it takes a lot of time to profile a new paper

Our clients spend zero time as we supply media we do the profiling for them for all the media we supply to all the targets they request - ask your supplier

So I need to be with all the classic printing standards, as well as being super color consistent for long periods of time. Dot proofing (especially in Europe) is disappearing fast. Will the US follow this trend soon? How the others RIPs handling the new printing standards?

99% of the dotproofs I have made ended up with the client using contone- I agree its dead for all mainstream proofing.
Color consistent- if your printers are in good enviroment they should be 100% stable

matching: If I go with another RIP, how hard will it be to linearized to my ongoing GMG profiles/settings? Especially that the 7900 series have the OG inks? Will others RIPs disregard those 2 colors for the dot proofing?

I prefer the gmg ability to micro adjust a profile at the % that I want to adjust- it is the only rip I feel confident with for very fine adjustments- dot proofing as above. but if I was asked to install another rip - say EFI -I would expect to achieve a satifactory result

verification: I know that each RIP have the option to verify proof (ProofControl, EFI Verifier...). I already have ProofControl, would I need to get a new one if using another RIP?

no- you can create any standard and any chart your spectro can read

good luck
Edwin

 

[rich apollo]

2. We believe in the PDF Print Engine as the future platform for all RIPs. EFI, GMG, Kodak, Agfa, Screen and others are all in agreement here.

Since PDF is no longer Adobe's property, but is now an ISO standard, is the ideological requirement for the APPE really valid?

- Dot proofs.....: In Europe, inkjet has become the new standard. In the US, we are moving more slowly as some "old school" buyers and printers still want to see a dot. I believe that GMG and Black magic have the best solution if you want to see good, hard dots. However, this can be deceiving unless you are ripping 1-bit data that also goes to your platesetter. Otherwise, the CTP RIP re-RIPs your data and your dot proof is less accurate.

Screening isn't quite the same as re-RIPping - is it? Isn't it the proofing RIP that re-RIPs the data?

As for the ability to proof to a standard - this is a non-issue. Print out a target, measure it, and compare back to the standard data. I don't think that you can rely on the data available from iterating your proofing system. And you certainly can't rely on anyone's marketing copy.

 

[loustique20]

I'm getting a demo of Black Magic on Friday. After reading all your post, I am well prepared for asking the right questions, and how to get the best deal!
I had a demo of EFI, and it is pretty nice too. Tough choice!