Going Backward? [slight rant]

[Tech]

Can anyone think of REAL reason why one must remove unused colors and fonts from empty spaces or stylesheets? Isn't the point of PDF workflow to resolve these ancient issues? I don't know what make less sense, between this or "you can't have knockout type over rich black". I watch a co-worker wasted time searching and removing empty spaces/non-printing points from Illy files because our prepress ran flightcheck and found "truetype" fonts that shouldn't be there [all used fonts are embedded]...the easiest solution to proof this is not a problem, create a clean pdf and voila, it's all gone and fonts are embedded...yet, he got a response, similar to "this is a one time deal" only. He must keep Illy files in .eps format in the future!

Are there any sane publishing people left out there?

 

[Joe]

Why not do it right and clean up the mess before sending it to prepress? I've seen plenty of times where a designer, instead of deleting an object off of the page, will cover it up with another box. With files these days and transparency everywhere it's not unheard of to see these objects end up getting in the printed page. Yeah, thanks for leaving that stuff in there.

Oh, you can have "knockout type over rich black" but don't come back complaining when it gets a little out of register and you see color hanging out of it and if it's small reverse type there is a good chance you won't even be able to read it.

prepress ran flightcheck and found "truetype" fonts that shouldn't be there [all used fonts are embedded]

So by that you mean the fonts not used are not embedded and flight check failed the file? Well in that case the RIP will more than likely fail the file too and the prepress operator will have to go try to find the problem and fix it. So instead of doing the job right the first time you would rather send crap files to prepress just to ease your work load? I see it every day in every job that comes in. Job security for me though. Keep sending the crap files. I'd like to retire in a few years.

 

[Tech]

I don't think you know what "clean" files are until you seen ours. You are talking about items being cover up, that's so 1990s and has Quark written all over it.

For every production manager to prepress person such as yourself that keeps reminding me knockout over rich black is a no-no, I could find perfect examples that demonstrate the difference between a great vendor that has superb pressman and those without.

Have you even seen Illy files with empty type spaces and Flightcheck picks it up as error with missing font? You are telling me that will fail RIPs? Tell me your RIPs can't handle gazillion path points, but empty type spaces....comeon!

 

[Joe]

Yes, missing fonts will fail in any RIP. The RIP is worthless if it doesn't fail the file that has missing fonts. The RIP has no idea it's a font that isn't being used.

And yes I'm talking about items being covered up. I see it every day. You look at a PDF in wire frame view and you can see exactly what the designer is doing.

You've got perfect presses and great pressmen. Fine. We don't. The presses are old and the pressmen do the best they can with what they have to work with. So if you send me a file with a rich black background and 8 point reverse type in it I'll tell you right now you won't be able to read it off of our high speed web press running 22# recycled newsprint.

 

[frailer]

Here's a screenshot of a problem from CS5, supplied PDF. The 2 lines, as selected in Pitstop, were 'below' the image on the page; essentially unwanted garbage, not attended to by the artiste. Now, it was visible in WireFrame. Certainly not in normal view. On Black Magic proof, it was barely visible; on makeready, more visible, and enough to require a fix and replate. Whatever attributes it possessed, it managed to 'puncture' the page, and become a problem.
Just wondering where such a scenario sits...?

Through Fuji XMF/APPE.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/yjdm4g

 

[mattbeals]

You still have to do that kind of clean up to ensure that files process correctly. Just because it's now a PDF doesn't make it clean or usable. Your prepress guy was right to spend the time. Maybe he could have spent less time, but the effort was not in vain. Whether it's a PDF workflow or a native workflow it is still a workflow. And workflows still suffer from many, if not all, of the same issues we did in the 90's. Oh, and every prepress/production designer creates bullet proof/perfect/clean files. No one in our end of the business would dare to make a mistake. After all, we're "professionals".

 

[Tech]

I'm at a lost. I appreciate the feedbacks and different perspectives. The last time I check, all these "unwanted and unused" items can easily be resolved with PDF v1.3. Sure, it doesn't support transparency but Failer's example [unintentionally] supports my point, most designs works aren't that complicated that it requires PDF v1.5 or higher for layers and live transparency. My co-worker was wasting time on a 1/1 book interior with less than a dozen Illy files...when creating a v1.3 PDF could have save him time so he can move on to something else that are just as urgent.

The bottom line? You guys want job security downstream. We want designers designing not doing prepress work upstream. When I see this stuff push back, it makes me wonder who is responsible for what anymore. IF creating "perfect" files are designer's responsibility, 1) they need to start teaching this in schools 2) no designers get hire unless they can pass a test on creating perfect files...which probably means 10/10 will likely fail the test. This is not to say designers CAN'T create perfectly clean files, rather they are pay to be creative and not sit in front of a screen to re-trace and hunt down empty spaces.

In no way, am I saying prepress work aren't important, but we need a common ground with intuitive-efficient solutions...I thought that was PDF.

 

[CHM]

I don't get your problems completely if you are talking about a pdf out off Illustrator.

Fonts:
If you have a stay point with a font that is not used it wont give any problem in the pdf.
Even if you have colorized that point with a spot color, it wont appear in your pdf even when you have a swatch in Illustrator, the pdf only shows the actual used colors in your final file. Only problem with all adobe products is that it always shows you CMYK, but those will be empty if you check it in separations.

Elements:
Same story here.

Or maybe I did not get what you mean, maybe you could send us a real example.

 

[DCurry]

I'm at a lost. I appreciate the feedbacks and different perspectives. The last time I check, all these "unwanted and unused" items can easily be resolved with PDF v1.3. Sure, it doesn't support transparency but Failer's example [unintentionally] supports my point, most designs works aren't that complicated that it requires PDF v1.5 or higher for layers and live transparency. My co-worker was wasting time on a 1/1 book interior with less than a dozen Illy files...when creating a v1.3 PDF could have save him time so he can move on to something else that are just as urgent.

The bottom line? You guys want job security downstream. We want designers designing not doing prepress work upstream. When I see this stuff push back, it makes me wonder who is responsible for what anymore. IF creating "perfect" files are designer's responsibility, 1) they need to start teaching this in schools 2) no designers get hire unless they can pass a test on creating perfect files...which probably means 10/10 will likely fail the test. This is not to say designers CAN'T create perfectly clean files, rather they are pay to be creative and not sit in front of a screen to re-trace and hunt down empty spaces.

In no way, am I saying prepress work aren't important, but we need a common ground with intuitive-efficient solutions...I thought that was PDF.

Wow, where to even start?

I have to disagree with your assertion that most designs aren't complicated enough to require transparency being kept live as long as possible. Maybe with the kind of work and customers you have that might be true, but at the shops I've worked at we get some really complicated designs that would be a nightmare if flattened too early. I find that designers overuse and misuse transparency all the time. Besides, the whole point of a PDF workflow is to not flatten until the RIP is creating the plate dots. A modern APPE workflow makes things a whole lot easier when dealing with transparency.

Creating perfect files is the designer's responsibility, especially if they want the best price from the printer. If the designer has no problem paying extra charges for fix time, then fine, but most will gripe about it when they see an extra charge on their final bill. Would you say that an architect is just supposed to be concerned with how a building looks? No -- they have to ensure that it can be built and be structurally sound. Perfection from designers might be a stretch - there are some things that they cannot know depending on the printer's workflow, but they should be able to get 95%.

As for knockout type over rich black, I have no problem with that as long as there is a keepaway trap to pull the CMY away from the type, leaving just the K to form the letter shapes and allowing enough room to compensate for registration issues on press. This should be pretty much standard in today's workflows.

 

[rich apollo]

As for knockout type over rich black, I have no problem with that as long as there is a keepaway trap to pull the CMY away from the type, leaving just the K to form the letter shapes and allowing enough room to compensate for registration issues on press. This should be pretty much standard in today's workflows.

As long as the black content is 100% black (not a screen) most RIPs can be programmed to automatically build a spreadback on reverses as part of the trapping.

I routinely receive PDFs from Windows systems that have blank type points or spaces. The issue that comes up is that the font is included in the list of fonts being used, but it is not embedded (or subset). Those files will error out on a RIP. I have to go through and track those points down and get rid of them, or replace the offending font. The Adobe apps, at least on the Mac side, don't do this - thankfully. They simply leave those points out.

PDF 1.3 is another issue. I'm encouraging clients to move away from PDF/X-1a. With the APPE, things flow much more smoothly with live transparency. Flattening can create issues for trapping, decreased editability, and some very serious overprint complications with spot colors that must be rendered as 4-color process. Obviously, you need to talk to your printer, but I'd much rather have PDF/X-4.

As to extraneous elements, my rule of thumb is very simple, "If you don't want to see it, it shouldn't be there." Colorbars, crop-marks, and the design groups' tagline/spec thingies that they so often include (especially in Illy files) all have to be gotten rid of at some point.

 

[swcook6]

Most good print vendors will supply file providers (designers, etc) with explicit step by step guidelines on proper file preparation. And we still get files with the most basic issues (fonts, color breaks, lo res, etc) Unfortunately, anyone who can draw a circle in Illustrator and fill it with color is hired for a very low wage to "design". And these folks would dare not take 30 minutes to review the supplied guidelines because they already know it all (I mean gosh, I just graduated with a degree and dad bought me a MacBook Pro!!)
So as easy as it is to create a print ready PDF, the same old story continues........

 

[M. R. Horton]

I really liked the Architect analogy by DCurry - Thanks for sharing it.

If I can step back from the technical details of Illustrator files, PDF's, embedded fonts, rich black knockouts, etc. for a moment:
Work Ethic - I have been instructed and heard/read many times that when a product or service leaves my process or area of responsibility it should be fit/ready/complete/tailored to enter the next process or area of responsibility. This frees me up to move on to the next product or service, and it allows the processes that follow mine to proceed efficiently. It conveys to the processors that follow me that I have a good "work ethic" and their confidence in the quality of my work is raised. These are all good things, I think.

"Workflow Ethic" - Fix it as early as possible! The farther down stream in a process that errors are found or corrections must be made usually translates into higher cost in time, money, materials, and confidence.

Now back to the nitty gritty:
While I no longer use Illustrator on a daily basis to design or decompose work from other designers, I have and still do use an action to automate the clean up of unused items in a file - stray points, unused swatches, etc. because once they have been removed or issues corrected I don't have to keep the platesetter and pressmen waiting while I go back in later to fix it. I also don't have to apologize for the poor quality of my work. Another benefit is that we aren't storing and moving and ripping as much data as we would otherwise. Not everything can be "auto-actioned" out of a file in a second or less, and I understand that, but still, what do they say about my work, and what does it cost, down the line?

Now it's probably time for a PDF Evangelist to weigh in on the good points and proper use/expectactions of PDF's and the PDF workflow.

 

[Joe]

Wow, where to even start?
As for knockout type over rich black, I have no problem with that as long as there is a keepaway trap to pull the CMY away from the type, leaving just the K to form the letter shapes and allowing enough room to compensate for registration issues on press. This should be pretty much standard in today's workflows.

Dan, I have to ask where and how is that standard? I can't make Prinergy do it. The only way I've been able to spread the 3 colors back is by manually doing it to each page by adding a stroke to the type and coloring it black using Pitstop. Very tedious this way.

 

[M. R. Horton]

Dan, I have to ask where and how is that standard? I can't make Prinergy do it. The only way I've been able to spread the 3 colors back is by manually doing it to each page by adding a stroke to the type and coloring it black using Pitstop. Very tedious this way.

Very tedious indeed!

We have a different version of Prinergy (Prinergy Evo actually), but in the Process Template Editor in the Trapping section is a checkbox for trapping keepaways. See attachment.

 

[DCurry]

Dan, I have to ask where and how is that standard? I can't make Prinergy do it. The only way I've been able to spread the 3 colors back is by manually doing it to each page by adding a stroke to the type and coloring it black using Pitstop. Very tedious this way.

I seem to remember Prinergy working that way by default out of the box. Not sure if M.R. Horton's screenshot reflects what you would see in your version. If you can't find it, post a screenshot and I'll compare it to my old shop's settings.

In my Apogee trap settings, it is called "Black Trapping" and I can set the threshold at which it will perform the keepaway. I usually have it set at 100, but sometimes I lower it to 85 if I have knockout type over an image that has Photoshop's default black build.

 

[Sev]

I seem to remember Prinergy working that way by default out of the box. Not sure if M.R. Horton's screenshot reflects what you would see in your version. If you can't find it, post a screenshot and I'll compare it to my old shop's settings.

In my Apogee trap settings, it is called "Black Trapping" and I can set the threshold at which it will perform the keepaway. I usually have it set at 100, but sometimes I lower it to 85 if I have knockout type over an image that has Photoshop's default black build.

In our Nexus workflow it it called Black Cutback Limits, where we too can set the threshold. There is also a setting for Other Cutbacks, where we can control the cutbacks for other colors, such as a double hit of a PMS color, etc.

-Sev

 

[Joe]

I need to clarify that a bit. I believe that cutback will work if it's a rich black tint panel with white text in it (both vector) but if it is white text placed on top of an image with a rich black background then it can't do the cutback. I used to use Nexus and their support told me this was not possible with the auto trapper and they gave me a work around for doing it manually in Nexus Edit. Same with Prinergy. Support says it's not possible also and has to be done manually in trap editor but it's actually easier in Pitstop.

Here are the trap settings in Prinergy.

 

[DCurry]

That makes sense, Joe, since the trapping occurs before the creation of actual dots. In Apogee the trapping occurs as the dots are created, so it actually does consider rich blacks in images.

I can think of a few of solutions/workarounds:

1. Maybe there is setting to tell Prinergy's trapper to take into account image values? The screenshot is rezzed down so I can't quite make out the settings.

2. If the image's rich black is a consistent color, make a box the same color in the layout and sandwich it between the knockout type and the image. Now it will be seen as linework (I know, that's an old Brisque term!) and should trap properly.

3. This might be the easiest - Don't do anything different at first. After the first refine, open the refined PDF and use the Trap Editor to select the desired elements and add a trap that is K only. One of the things I liked so much about Prinergy was how easy it is to edit and create traps. Any edge can be turned into a trap, and any trap can be turned back into an edge as desired. Or were they called borders? I can't remember.

edit - Whoops, I actually went back and re-read your post, Joe, and see that you already knew this!

 

[Joe]

I guess the forum software res'd the image down. Here is the high res version:

I don't actually have Trap Editor I just remember using it during Prinergy class and it's easier in Pitsop than what I remember from class.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

A problem we will keep having is that as more and more people buy the software the "average user" will be less and less competent. Add to that new users who are self taught by trial and "what they find on the net" tutorials and there are some bad advice presented as good advice.
Add to that all the different teachers who teach people things they don't fully understand themselves.

Artists who think that white with a 30% transparent spot colour will be the same contrast as a 100% fill with a 30% transparent white object.

In illustrator there is under the selection menu "select stray points". You can search for unused coulours, add used colours, merge swatches… they even have the "find font" that was indesign exclusive. There are tools and scripts to clean up art. But mostly it's just good practice, like not hogging all the coffee muggs that are stacking up at your desk and not finding their way to the dishwasher