Going rate for Kodak color approval

[jwalter007]

We are working with a company to print labels for our product. They
are requiring us to use their Kodak Color Approval at a cost of $450/
color.
I looked into the system. i watched a Kodak video on youtube &
although the machine looks rather expensive, it seems likes its really
just a high quality printout.
Does the rate that I am being charged seem high? I would expect to pay
about 1/4 of that per color. Not that Im an expert or anything.Thanks.
Jason

 

[Stephen Marsh]

We are working with a company to print labels for our product. They
are requiring us to use their Kodak Color Approval at a cost of $450/
color.

Jason, can I assume that only one, final proof direct before press uses the Kodak Approval? Intermediate proofs would be hardcopy inkjet/laser or perhaps a softproof? When compared to a failed packaging print run due to prepress or design errors, the cost of the Approval proof is nothing, it is insurance. For decades, the Approval has been used as the final word in proof approval, trusted and requested (demanded) by both brand owners and converters in the packaging sector.

I looked into the system. i watched a Kodak video on youtube &
although the machine looks rather expensive, it seems likes its really
just a high quality printout.

That is one way of putting it! This is a capital investment that is more similar to a CtP device than an inkjet or laser printer. In addition to the Approval, one needs the laminator and controller hardware/software. So at this point, the outlay is probably x5-x10 what one would outlay for a large format inkjet proofing solution (hardware and software). Additionally, there are the consumable costs for the colour donors, intermediate, laminate etc. A basic CMYK proof has a different cost to produce than one that uses spot colour, white, metallics etc. On top of this there is a requirement for a trained human operator to be involved at key points during the process (unlike an inkjet proofer). Added on again is the intellectual property of each individual shop as they build their recipe library of accurate spot colours on different substrates, tone reproduction curves etc.

Does the rate that I am being charged seem high?

I can't comment on the going rate per proof in your market, location etc. I work for a Kodak master distributor in AU/NZ - we sell the Kodak Approval NX (as well as Kodak Matchprint Inkjet proofing solutions).

I would expect to pay
about 1/4 of that per color. Not that Im an expert or anything.Thanks.
Jason

What sets this expectation of 1/4 the price per proof? What can you compare an Approval proof to (there is no competitor AFAIK, at least when it comes to spot colours), are you simply comparing the going rate of an inkjet proof to the Approval (if so this is not a fair expectation) - or are you comparing the cost of one prepress house Approval to another prepress house Approval?


Sincerely,

Stephen Marsh

 

[meddington]

There are some unknowns, but I would say $450/ color is way high and I agree that i've seen prices for about 1/4 that. I also wouldn't put nearly as much credence in the Kodak Approval as final word in proof approval. I'd say the Approval has lost considerable ground to color accurate inkjet, including spot color emulation, and deservedly so. There are some unique capability of the approval (use of actual print substrate, metallic spots, etc) , but high-end inkjet (competent Rip and hardware) can compete on nearly all levels. My 2 cents.

 

[TerryWyse]

There are some unknowns, but I would say $450/ color is way high and I agree that i've seen prices for about 1/4 that. I also wouldn't put nearly as much credence in the Kodak Approval as final word in proof approval. I'd say the Approval has lost considerable ground to color accurate inkjet, including spot color emulation, and deservedly so. There are some unique capability of the approval (use of actual print substrate, metallic spots, etc) , but high-end inkjet (competent Rip and hardware) can compete on nearly all levels. My 2 cents.

Your 2 cents is TOO HIGH Mike.......I say it should be $.02/4 or $0.005 worth. Even allowing for the onset of inflation here in the US, I'd say you're still only worth about $.007 tops.

just sayin'

The Fed

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I also wouldn't put nearly as much credence in the Kodak Approval as final word in proof approval.

Major multi-national brand owners and packaging converters/printers do put this credence in the Kodak Approval (at least in the AU/NZ market, and likely in other regions too). If you can't produce an Approval, you are not in the game. This is not coming from me as a vendor, it comes from the brands and the converters. No inkjet proofing solution has -yet- displaced the approval for this market as the final sign off proof. In most other fields, dot proofing is a thing of the past, and even though inkjets can do "dot proofing" to a certain extent (either using 1 bit plate file tiffs or emulating halftones with their own AM screening engine), it is not the same thing as a true dot proofing system as found in the Kodak Approval. Most sectors don't care, however packaging still does.

I'd say the Approval has lost considerable ground to color accurate inkjet, including spot color emulation, and deservedly so.

Agreed. My comment in relation to spot colours was in regards to showing true spot colour halftone dots as found on plate, not that a wide gamut inkjet could not hit similar solid ink L*a*b* values. Fuji have something smilar to the Kodak Approval for dot proofing, but it does not produce spot colours, so it has "no current market". The CMYK market has moved on. Today, we do not see commercial offset printers buying or using the Kodak Approval - they use inkjets and proofing RIPs. Today, we still do see packaging converters and prepress houses in the packaging sector using interim inkjets and then a final Kodak Approval for sign off before press.


Sincerely,

Stephen Marsh

 

[meddington]

Major multi-national brand owners and packaging converters/printers do put this credence in the Kodak Approval (at least in the AU/NZ market, and likely in other regions too).

I don't disagree with you, as their are indeed still hold outs in the packaging sector. That said, my company does work with several major packaging printers within the US (flexo and offset), all of whom accept inkjet proofs as the final proof, with most content involving spot color gradients. Most of the reasons for holding on to the Approval is related to the dotproofing ability, yet by and large, the actual plate dot is not being utilized anyway, and often at a compromise to color accuracy. I personally view the Approval as a niche proofer...great for mockups/metallics, but for the most part antiquated. Packaging will catch on. I believe the European market has already.

To the OP, you might want to shop around for Approval pricing and bring that data back to the table, as it seems to high to me.
My $0.007 cents.

 

[jwalter007]

Thanks for your comments. They have been helpful....
Im not even sure why I need the Kodak proof. Especially for $450/color.

The company is printing a shrink sleeve. I have a display box that they will be packaged into. I don't understand why they wouldnt be able to compare the box to the print sleeves as they start printing & simply adjust the color as they come off the line. It doesnt have to be so "scientific" for my needs. If they label colors look the same as the box colors, then thats good enough for me.

 

[Chief_1975]

Approval as a niche proofer...great for mockups/metallics, but for the most part antiquated. Packaging will catch on. I believe the European market has already.

To the OP, you might want to shop around for Approval pricing and bring that data back to the table, as it seems to high to me.
My $0.007 cents.

Agreed, in Europe for Packaging Kodak Approvals are fast losing ground to cheaper inkjet proofs, Epson WT etc.

$450 per colour!, I would consider that expensive even for wet proofs (real ink & on production material) rather than a "simulated" proof.

 

[airyk]

the materials for Kodak Approvals proofs is far more expensive then anything else, however when we use to have our Kodak Approval our pricewas far cheaper then that. Bear in mind regadless of how small your item you need proofed, they have to use a full sheet.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

$450 per colour!, I would consider that expensive even for wet proofs (real ink & on production material) rather than a "simulated" proof.

Agreed, I did not read the OP as this cost for each colour lay down (in the file or is this per donor roll sheet), I took this as the total cost of the proof.

Stephen Marsh

 

[Luc St-Pierre]

I understand that this proofing (labels) is for flexo. Dot proofing for flexo is the dead-end for Kodak or any inkjet solution I have seen. Dots on proof and dots on plate are not the same at all. Typical flexo dot gain makes it very hard for dot proofing to be done along with color accuracy and yet, I still have customers that want to see a dot proof. Between you and me, I tenderly call them my dotwatchers.

 

[daveholmes]

I think the price is about 4 times what you should be paying


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