Great Western Ink - Process Magenta

[Chasfinch]

Has anyone notice that the process magenta from GWE is a little dark?

 

[D Ink Man]

Has anyone notice that the process magenta from GWE is a little dark?

Never have seen it, but is it the masstone of the magenta or the undertone (print tone)?

If it is a dark masstone I would suspect that the hue would be leaning towards the colder or blue side. Many times this is normal because of the varying resination processes in the manufacture of pigment 57:1 lithol rubine.

As long as you are getting good print reproductions and clean dot tones, i.e. facial tones, things should be fine. If you are using G7 proofing, L-a-b values should be calibrated to allow you easy matching of the proof.

Is this 'dark' causing any issues at all sir? D

 

[Asures]

Agreed with Mr. D - Are you referring to the Print Tone or Mass Tone?

If you are concerned about it, ask your supplier if that particular process ink series is ISO2846 and or ISO12647-2 compliant. I have plenty of clients that get hung up on how ink looks in a can or ink fount instead of focusing on the printed sheet.

What series are you running of theirs specifically?

 

[Chasfinch]

Never have seen it, but is it the masstone of the magenta or the undertone (print tone)?

If it is a dark masstone I would suspect that the hue would be leaning towards the colder or blue side. Many times this is normal because of the varying resination processes in the manufacture of pigment 57:1 lithol rubine.

As long as you are getting good print reproductions and clean dot tones, i.e. facial tones, things should be fine. If you are using G7 proofing, L-a-b values should be calibrated to allow you easy matching of the proof.

Is this 'dark' causing any issues at all sir? D

yes we did a test run Friday. And there was an obvious issue with the Magenta. It looked like the density was way up and slightly Rubine. Pressman said he rand 140 on the Magenta which is about where he normally runs. I took the lab values and input them in photoshop compared to 100%M and it basically looks exactly what we are seeing from our G7 Cert 4900 Proof Vs Press sheet. Tack looks to be an issue also Grey balance was way off. I sent readings off and I am sure its going to verify what you can plainly see.

 

[D Ink Man]

yes we did a test run Friday. And there was an obvious issue with the Magenta. It looked like the density was way up and slightly Rubine. Pressman said he rand 140 on the Magenta which is about where he normally runs. I took the lab values and input them in photoshop compared to 100%M and it basically looks exactly what we are seeing from our G7 Cert 4900 Proof Vs Press sheet. Tack looks to be an issue also Grey balance was way off. I sent readings off and I am sure its going to verify what you can plainly see.

I would relook at the curves again, L-a-b, press proof and press sheet.

Did the pressman try to vary the mag density just to see if the grey balance improved even if it was not corresponsity numerical density?

I would run simple hue error and grayness readings on your densitometer, proof vs. press sheet, just as another tool to see if you are close. If the hue error and grayness are off, by more than 1 point, either one, you might corral the issue.

As far as the tack, I would get a Western Ink Tech involved. I would request him to show you 'tack curves' on all 4 process inks. This is imperative. They should be run at a reduced volume on the IOM or on a Tack-O-Scope. If Western needs consultation to what I am asking for, please don't be afraid to ask. Do not rely on verbage from the tech or sales guy from Western. You wasnt to 'see' the tack stabilty curves yourself. Then and only then will you know if your 'tack' is correct. A one minute tack reading means nothing. You need the stablity curve.

Also, if you can on next run, try to collect ink film thickness readings on your process inks. It could be a 'strength' issue that could cause trapping problems because of poor balance with your films. I assume you are running a K-C-M-Y rotation.

Please look into these items and we can continue to target remedy your problem together.

D Ink Man

 

[Chasfinch]

thanks,
here is what the report showed as per the color management person we use for out G7 cert:
Magenta ink too reddish, not bluish enough
100% CM overprint too reddish
The magenta density isn't too high--it's actually slightly lighter than spec--but wrong color.
You should check the ink for contamination or other quality issues. Check the ink-water balance on the M and Y units. Check packing and solution pH.

there we other issues also. Mainly dot gain. Press "issues" I dont mind. but when the ink looks a different color well thats something for the most part out of our control unless some how we contaminated it.

I would relook at the curves again, L-a-b, press proof and press sheet.

Did the pressman try to vary the mag density just to see if the grey balance improved even if it was not corresponsity numerical density?

I would run simple hue error and grayness readings on your densitometer, proof vs. press sheet, just as another tool to see if you are close. If the hue error and grayness are off, by more than 1 point, either one, you might corral the issue.

As far as the tack, I would get a Western Ink Tech involved. I would request him to show you 'tack curves' on all 4 process inks. This is imperative. They should be run at a reduced volume on the IOM or on a Tack-O-Scope. If Western needs consultation to what I am asking for, please don't be afraid to ask. Do not rely on verbage from the tech or sales guy from Western. You wasnt to 'see' the tack stabilty curves yourself. Then and only then will you know if your 'tack' is correct. A one minute tack reading means nothing. You need the stablity curve.

Also, if you can on next run, try to collect ink film thickness readings on your process inks. It could be a 'strength' issue that could cause trapping problems because of poor balance with your films. I assume you are running a K-C-M-Y rotation.

Please look into these items and we can continue to target remedy your problem together.

D Ink Man

 

[D Ink Man]

thanks,
here is what the report showed as per the color management person we use for out G7 cert:
Magenta ink too reddish, not bluish enough
100% CM overprint too reddish
The magenta density isn't too high--it's actually slightly lighter than spec--but wrong color.
You should check the ink for contamination or other quality issues. Check the ink-water balance on the M and Y units. Check packing and solution pH.

there we other issues also. Mainly dot gain. Press "issues" I dont mind. but when the ink looks a different color well thats something for the most part out of our control unless some how we contaminated it.

It may becoming contaiminated because of the yellow being too strong or the cyan being too weak. Is the rotation K-C-M-Y? We are getting somewhere now. D

 

[Chasfinch]

It may becoming contaiminated because of the yellow being too strong or the cyan being too weak. Is the rotation K-C-M-Y? We are getting somewhere now. D

yes standard ink rotation. KCMY
and remember the 100%M when held up to our G7 Cert proof the Magenta Looks darker. And I did plug in the L A B value into photoshop and it looks to have the same kind of difference to the photoshop 100M. ( yes I know its a monitor but when you see the same kind of shift its a clue right?)
So I will have to go back and discuss contamination with the production manager Monday.

 

[D Ink Man]

yes standard ink rotation. KCMY
and remember the 100%M when held up to our G7 Cert proof the Magenta Looks darker. And I did plug in the L A B value into photoshop and it looks to have the same kind of difference to the photoshop 100M. ( yes I know its a monitor but when you see the same kind of shift its a clue right?)
So I will have to go back and discuss contamination with the production manager Monday.

After that, it may be time to examine the inks effect on the situation. As discussed, IFT based on relative color strength and stability curves would be good starts to concentrate on.

It naturally would be ideal to absolutely find the culprit for the woes, but whatever it is, ink can fix it. Just need a willing expertised partner as a supplier to assist. Let us see. D

 

[Chasfinch]

update

Just talked to the pressman- said M ink was too tacky and has been for a while. That explains the trapping issue with the C

 

[D Ink Man]

Chasfinch,

Verify that with Western and have them provide you with tack readings and stability curves like I previously suggested.

Let's see if they concur and if they are responsive. You need a partner sir. You're paying for the ink and this is a most reasonable request. D

 

[Chasfinch]

As per your suggestion we plan to do another verificaiton (test) run with the ink sales Rep here with all his gadgets to check his ink.

thanks!

Chasfinch,

Verify that with Western and have them provide you with tack readings and stability curves like I previously suggested.

Let's see if they concur and if they are responsive. You need a partner sir. You're paying for the ink and this is a most reasonable request. D

 

[D Ink Man]

As per your suggestion we plan to do another verificaiton (test) run with the ink sales Rep here with all his gadgets to check his ink.

thanks!

'sales' bothers me, TECH enlightens me. Please let us know the results. Very much interested. D