Grey balance test

[gordo]

"Then he was instructed to increase the density of the Magenta to the max - which in this case was plus .20 points. This is a density that would never happen in actual production."

Wow, this is an amount I routinely see our pressman LOWER the densities, DURING actual production.

I don't know if you're joking or not. Because if you're not then that kinda blows your whole G7 color management story below.
Usually press operators lower SIDS for good reason - it might not be the right thing to do but, given SIDS are basically their only control that's what they do if they're trying to match a proof. Usually lowering the SIDs to match the proof is because the plate curves aren't appropriate.

I will say that I've never thought of the 3C gray patch as a means to monitor SIDs but rather a way to monitor gray balance, TVI shifts, maybe even plate problems?

In newspaper work it is not unusual to see the GB patch used to indicate SIDs. I've never seen the GB patch used for monitoring any of the things you noted. It is sometimes used forensically after the run is done - not during the run if the job is failing.

And if it is way more sensitive to changes than the live image I would see that as even more valuable because I would think that if you can keep that patch balanced, the live image will stay well within tolerance.

I disagree for all the reasons I've already covered.

If we are printing with G7 method, we've created curves to bring the gray into balance across the scale, then isn't the 3C gray patch just as important for TVI reasons? Solids are ran to the densities determined to give the best Lab match to what is called for in the profile, plates are made with curves which only deals with dot size put down on the paper, then how do you check TVI to make sure the press is still in line with the curves you're applying to the plates? 3C gray patch gives you instant visual and measurable data on whether your print is still aligned with the day the curves targets were ran.

Maybe, maybe not. A color bar on a live production job does not have the same value as a test firm which is carefully layed out to compensate for how presses lay ink down.

I know you're not a proponent of G7 so there are really 2 angles to this thread. Coming from the G7 angle I see it as invaluable.

My problem with G7 is related to how it was tested and brought to market. Lot's of decisions based on authority rather than scoence.

You are trying to demonstrate to the pressman the same thing, consistency, measurable consistency, so that when the press is started up, ran to target SIDs, with the right curves on the plate, color will "fall" into place. That is what we see here using G7 but I'm sure this isn't the only approach that will produce that.

I thought you said the pressroom was lowering SIDs to match the proof? ;-D

Consistency is the key. Plates can be produced very consistently, press work inherently varies more so. If using G7 method with that profile, curves applied to plates, press is ran to target densities and tweaked to gray balance if necessary, color does fall into place, or in other words, matches a proof made with that same profile really well.

I agree, and it works even if you don't use G7.

There are always some colors that don't match exactly and sometimes some that don't match very well. It's often a compromise of some sort as to dialing-in what is on any particular sheet depending on what is in-line with it around the cylinder. Color matching on every run depends on what colors are in the live work and how well the complete process can reproduce those colors.

Yes.

The bigger part of this to me, has been getting the pressman to buy-in. Even though he has seen it work, he still views it as a craft type of job and turns each run into a custom adjusted one. This of course causes problems, as you would know, of having much more inconsistency in our print jobs over time, from week to week, month to month, year to year.
Given that we are printing volumes of books with same cover photos, color indexing and backgrounds, year after year. Also makes for 3-5 hour make-readies and thousands of sheets used. IF you can figure out how to convince people to change, that it WILL actually be an easier way, AND save time and materials, then you will really have something! Please let us know when you get that one figured out

There are ways to get the press guys on board which I've covered earlier.

Great discussion. Really interested in Auraia screening also, let us hear about any further testing or results you get on that.

So far they love it - no problems, but I will be going more in depth with them on the screening this month.

Best gordo

 

[Prepper]

I don't know if you're joking or not. Because if you're not then that kinda blows your whole G7 color management story below.
Usually press operators lower SIDS for good reason - it might not be the right thing to do but, given SIDS are basically their only control that's what they do if they're trying to match a proof. Usually lowering the SIDs to match the proof is because the plate curves aren't appropriate.

Sadly, NOT joking. Plates are checked in prepress for consistency, pressman runs densities according to how he thinks it should look on every job, not trying to match the proof, just how he thinks it should look. No amount of training, talking, coercing has been able to change that for the last 7 years. It is what is.

In newspaper work it is not unusual to see the GB patch used to indicate SIDs. I've never seen the GB patch used for monitoring any of the things you noted. It is sometimes used forensically after the run is done - not during the run if the job is failing.

Ok, you're printing with compensation curves applied based on some targets you ran to align your print to a certain tone reproduction curve, and if G7 method, then gray balance patch, visually and measuring, it will tell you immediately if you're getting the same screen values as the day the curves targets were ran, whether dots on the plates or TVI on the press are still in line. If it looks too red and M is higher than CY then you know that either M is higher TVI than day curves were made or CY are lower, given densities are correct. I hope I'm conveying that in the right way.

I thought you said the pressroom was lowering SIDs to match the proof? ;-D

Yes, that is what I was saying, and yes it has been demonstrated to him that it works when he does that, problem is he never sticks with it and falls right back into making each run a custom adjusted color job. And you are right, that's the hardest part, getting people to change. I have watched him adjust a problem job for 2 hours and when he finally gets it around to where it looks like the proof, guess what, I checked it and the 3C gray patch was balanced, so if he had just went to the correct densities to start with it would have been really close immediately. That has been demonstrated to him numerous times throughout this ordeal but that still hasn't had an affect on him enough that he changes his thinking and gives it a chance to work. You'll just have to take my word about the plates, I make them, I check them, I record the measurements in an Excel file so I know and can show that the plates are good. I have to because when there's a job that he's having trouble with on press or trouble with getting a press ok, he will ask me if I can adjust the file or plates for him, and I like someone else mentioned here, refuse to adjust color when he isn't running to the densities that would make this work to start with. I ask, what did it look like at the right densities and he says he didn't go there because he could tell it wouldn't have worked anyway if he did, that has been demonstrated to him on more than one occasion also, when he was forced to first print some to the right densities before we would do anything else, guess what again, it was close enough to run. Hopeless situation.

There are ways to get the press guys on board which I've covered earlier.

Like I said, please let me know if you find a way to get people to change Was joking on this part because I think there are some that just will not, even if it is easier, better, quicker, saves.
I'm just in a unique situation here in a unique company. Best place in the world to work and best boss, just can't get pressman to be a team player and he has been our pressman for 20+ and will be our pressman until…

I wish you great success with that company, maybe they will see and realize the benefits of what you're trying to do for them. It's hard when you see something, pretty much prove it without any doubt, know the benefits it holds for your company's print quality and consistency, but still can't get a pressman to utilize it.

Thanks for all your contributions to what I've learned here and from your blog about printing and color management. Need to study people management now I guess.

 

[arossetti]

I'm just in a unique situation here in a unique company. Best place in the world to work and best boss, just can't get pressman to be a team player and he has been our pressman for 20+ and will be our pressman until…

No amount of tenure should guarantee you a seat on the bus. Time to find a new pressman in my opinion, your company is being held hostage by one person who won't allow you to evolve.

 

[Prepper]

No amount of tenure should guarantee you a seat on the bus. Time to find a new pressman in my opinion, your company is being held hostage by one person who won't allow you to evolve.

Right, but like I said, unique position in a very unique company. Probably time to throw in the towel on color management, give him linear plates and let it be. Probably was time a long time ago.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

No amount of tenure should guarantee you a seat on the bus. Time to find a new pressman in my opinion, your company is being held hostage by one person who won't allow you to evolve.

I think one unconscious motive for owners to move to digital presses is to avoid having to deal with the perceived craft culture of people who are not willing to change but still claim to have knowledge that can not be questioned. This applies to press operators and to experts who think they are indispensable. From my experience in manufacturing, I have never found anyone who is indispensable.

I hope management will be able to change this operators thinking. Its their job to try.

 

[Prepper]

I think one unconscious motive for owners to move to digital presses is to avoid having to deal with the perceived craft culture of people who are not willing to change but still claim to have knowledge that can not be questioned. This applies to press operators and to experts who think they are indispensable. From my experience in manufacturing, I have never found anyone who is indispensable.

I hope management will be able to change this operators thinking. Its their job to try.

Exactly. That is one very conscious response management has in relation to this problem, "maybe we can just get a digital press." They have tried to change it, for years, as previously stated.

Some know that and try to make themselves indispensable by working hard, doing the best job they can the most efficient way and others believe themselves indispensable just because they walked in the door this morning and are really owed more just for showing up, albeit late. That is why changing a person's ways is the hardest thing, culture, personalities, most don't change, we are who we are for the most part, you're either geared to strive for improvement, compete, do the best you can, work with others, or you aren't.

 

[tytyguy]

Just use a printer test page in black and white http://printertestpage.org