Hard proof, soft proof, no proof?

[LSoule]

My company designs pharmaceutical packaging -- the files that print rather than the boxes/containers themselves. We don't actually print things, but rather prepare files that printers use.

I really don't want to be a clueless client so when I have a question, I'll ask the experts.

A client wants to standardize procedures for their many printers. For proofing, they've shown a desire to move from hard proofs to soft proofs.

The client has just begun dealing with a printer in the UK who supplies no proofs at all (well, actually it's the unknown print vendor selected by the company who's packaging our client's product). The client's Regulatory Affairs and Quality Control departments may hyperventilate.

Does anyone have any insight into the pro's & con's of not supplying a proof? Is it because of a specialized printing process? The packager is a very large company with all the regulatory requirements of a pharmaceutical CMO, so their print supplier must meet requirements as well.

I've found a few links to hard proofs vs. soft proofs, but haven't found anything about no proofs. Could someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

 

[mattbeals]

For that kind of work I would NOT print without a contract proof. Look at ICS Remote Director.

 

[gordo]

@LSoule,

Maybe look at it a different way.

One of the functions of a proof is to act as a tool to mitigate liability.

So, whether a proof is soft, hard, or non-existent reflects the level of concern over assigned liability.

If I give you a file - I need to document that you have accepted the file as is. Without that sign-off, I might be found liable if a problem shows up later in the production process.

If you tae that file and pass it on to a print provider you, as well as they, will need to know that what you sent them is the same as what they return to you as a printed product. Otherwise you or they might be held liable for any difference.

If the tolerance for a difference in what is asked for and what is delivered is great - then proofs may not be needed.

However, if the tolerance for a difference in what is asked for and what is delivered is very small - then proofs are critical.

best, gordo

 

[HPC]

We print for the trade in business forms.. kind of a "down and dirty" type printing, but someone has to do it. Anyway, from time to time we have customers (brokers) who don't want to bother with a proof. When I make the phone call explaining the risks and who is gonna be liable if the job bounces, we show proofs. Even with proofs something small has been missed and the job rejected. I would not go down the road of no proof. Just my .02

 

[mattbeals]

In my business form days we'd run tens of millions bank deposit, withdrawal and ATM receipts. We proofed everything, even simple form jobs. No exceptions.

 

[bprint_tampabay]

Just to enforce what has already been said

ALWAYS GET A SIGNED OFF PROOF

No matter how insignificant it seems.

 

[michaelejahn]

Okay, so lemme see - which hat do i want to wear to to answer this question ?

As Michael Jahn, who works for Compose systems and sell hard proofing software;
"...gee wiz, I would hate to hear that you ordered 2 million of your box of the new Thor moivie themed childrens vitamins only to discover that the brown has a morie pattern..."
-- so, some might argue "what are you NUTZ? Of course you need a dot proof !"

As Michael Jahn - who is a PDF Evangelist - and likes to promote the idea of exchanging reliable PDF/X-4 files - ....
"Well, if you know what you are doing, you can create package designs with spot colors, dies cuts, embossing, foil stamps, varnishes - and save these as PDF/X-4 files - and send them to your printer - it is all about setting up the business relationship and following a strict process control and design rule set.

As Michael Jahn, frequent user of Mimeo.com services for online Web2Print print orders...
"I use Acrobat as my internal proofing system, and I trust what I send because I order a prototype before I make a big order."

But ignoring all of what I just said - I agree with Gordon, it simply depends on what a proof is to you and your team.

If you happen to find yourself in court and they are asking "what did you send and why did you expect it to print differently than what you got" - you better have some way to demonstrate that you sent a PDF/X file with an embedded output intent if you are going proof-less - and I would really really have you consider telling your printer to invest in pressSIGN, ColorMetrix, MeasureColor, SpotOn or Final Print Assurance - where the printer prints and measures the color bar (or other things on the press work) and send you a report !

Hope this helps...

Link to the products and services mentioned;

pressSIGN;
pressSIGN

ColorMetrix;
ProofPass.com [Virtual] – ColorMetrix

MeasureColor
MeasureColor - MeasureColor.com - The Color and Appearance Measurement Experts - Color Measurement - Color Management

Final Print Assurance
Final Print Assurance (FPA®) - Welcome

 

[Toweri]

You mention "pharmaceutical".

With that - always demand signed hard copy contract proofs - ALWAYS!! No exceptions.

To prove the point: Who takes responsibility, if they print 50 000 boxes of pills, that says "Take 1 pill every day" - when the safe dose would be 1/2 pill every day...

 

[Yoga]

most printers of pharma packages use error checking and quality control equipments...maybe thats the reason he doesn't do proofs...?

 

[LSoule]

Thank you all so much for the generosity of your time and expertise.

The links have certainly given me a lot of reading to do, and the comments a lot to think about.

I had been told it was the printers who refused to supply proofs (turns out two printers not just one, one UK and one Germany). After your comments, this seems less likely, so perhaps it's the packagers/CMOs who want the final say in proof approval, keeping our client out of the mix.

This might mean our client will need to be very specific with their expectations, if they won't be allowed to see a proof before printing.

Our client also wanted to know if printing without supplying a proof was becoming a trend in the industry. I think I can report a resounding NO. I'll try to work "NUTZ" in the report somehow

Thanks again for all your help.