Has Anyone Sued Their Digital Press Manufacturer for Downtime?

[JMSDP]

I am a small all-digital printer.

My main production press is a CANON 6000VP.

IT IS DOWN ALL THE TIME - often for multiple days. My business is being destroyed by the incompetance of Canon's technicians, their service managers and their inability to get parts. I am missing deadlines every day.

Has anyone filed suit against a digital press manufacturer for non-performance or excessive downtime? Do we have options to recourse for their horrible service? They don't seem to care that they are putting me out of business.

I appriciate any advice that you can offer.

 

[LoneGoose]

I would love to follow your story if you go through with that!

We have almost (doesn't sound quite as bad as yours - but almost) the same story with a NexPress. Have resolved recently to start logging every fault and every minute of downtime / waiting / repairs etc. so we have some hard evidence if it ever comes to that.

 

[Craig]

Almost had to with Canon as well on a CLC4000. Good luck, although you should have a CED that will lay-out just how much downtime you should have. One thing you MUST make sure is that your environment is suitable for the device. If you don't have the proper temp and humidity you may not have a leg to stand on.

 

[LoneGoose]

It might be an Americanisation, or I might just be slow (which is the more likely case) when it comes to acronym's, but what does CED stand for? It's obviously the service contract; just don't know what it's short for.

 

[gordo]

I believe that a number of years ago the Chromapress Users Association sued Agfa. Is there a Canon users group? There's often more power in groups than in individuals when it comes to resolving issues.

best, gordon p

 

[LoneGoose]

There was a similar thread here:http://printplanet.com/forums/digital-printing-discussion/16341-canon-6000vp from 2008... is an 'age-old' story, it seems!

 

[lfelton]

I am a small all-digital printer.

My main production press is a CANON 6000VP.

IT IS DOWN ALL THE TIME - often for multiple days. My business is being destroyed by the incompetance of Canon's technicians, their service managers and their inability to get parts. I am missing deadlines every day.

Has anyone filed suit against a digital press manufacturer for non-performance or excessive downtime? Do we have options to recourse for their horrible service? They don't seem to care that they are putting me out of business.

I appriciate any advice that you can offer.

I second Lonegoose; make sure you document every problem in detail. Fault description (include whether repeat of previous fault), time call logged, time engineer attended, time on site, engineers description of problem.

Some years ago we had a total lemon Xerox machine, I mean literally sitting in bits for weeks on end, over and over again. We kept good records, but were getting nowhere with the local Xerox team for months. I demanded a meeting with the region's service manager. We sat down and he started going through the service history print out. Cut a long story short, Xerox had recorded only a fraction of the actual down time. Once I showed him our detailed log, the story and whole tone of the discussion changed _completely_ and we had a TSG (complete swap out for another unit) authorised and on the way in a couple of days. The replacement machine was brilliant and the relationship with Xerox much better after that.

So my advice: make sure your down time is recorded by you, then bypass your local team and demand a meeting with a senior member of staff at Canon, with the ability to make decisions.

 

[Craig]

CED = Customer Expectations Document. I know for sure they have one for the 7000VP (I have read it), I would only assume they would for the 6000 too. This will outline in great detail what the machines capabilities are. You should have received this document at a minimum of when the machine was installed, I got mine from Xerox before I signed the contract.

 

[dabob]

I didn't have to sue the "name deleted due to settlement agreement" but the story was . . . I ordered a remanufactured press (not a copier(hint)) and when it arrived on our floor it was obviously not in the condition you would expect for a remanufactured version . .. ink/toner splattered all around on the inside - the counter top was not finished etc etc etc. . . . on top of that it wouldn't run. Now this was a replacement for the same model the leasing co had just taken back so its not like it was new to us. Like the previous post say document document document everything!!!

Lost jobs, jobs that lost money, total down time, waiting time for response to service - everything - the most damning evidence that I had was a year to year comparison shown that for a specific time period a year before we did X dollars of work on the press and that this year was 10% of X. (figures are for demonstration purposes only)

They flew a technician in from overseas eventually to rebuild the press on our floor . . . more down time.

In the end if you collect enough damning evidence they will negotiate with you . . . don't back down and if necessary . . mention the internet and the power of easy information dissemination. One honest bad review can equal thousands in lost revenue in the long run . . .

I had personally purchased the press and leased it to my corporation. I got my lease income in a check was for three or four months and then the company got a credit against their service contract billing for, as I recall, 12 months . . so while it was painful we at least came out of it only hurting a little.

Good luck - and document everything

 

[Happyprinter]

We experienced the same problem years ago as Ifelton writes about with a Xerox Majestic machine. It was a lemon. Never ran. Brand new machine. Xerox service techs. tried for months to get it to work but to no avail. After alot of lost time and money I finally had to call the regional office and with my attorney we were able to get them to honor their "Replacement Guarantee", and to compensate lost earnings. The advice given has been great. Document and if they still will not cooperate, nail em to the wall. When any company makes promises that they will not keep, or sells faulty equipment and will not service properly, bottom line is , they deserve and need to be held accountable. Although I personally do not care for Attorneys, occassionally they are a necessary evil. As a parting note, I believe you will be quite amazed at the cooperation you will receive when you confront them prepared and they know you are going to proceed forward. No company likes a black eye.

 

[lkl7255]

I agree with what others have written here-- Record your downtime and technical issues. We provide our CED (Customer Expectations Document) because it is truthful to the capabilities and range of the machine, and if your machine isn’t meeting the specs in the CED… we need to know.

Also, as a side note–For a lot of our production equipment we have the Productivity Plus Program where you are trained to do your own maintenance. That way you aren’t waiting on Xerox service to arrive (however we will still support you if there is something you need help with).

Ifelton – “The replacement machine was brilliant and the relationship with Xerox much better after that.” I’m glad to hear that your relationship with Xerox grew after your experience with your ‘lemon’.

 

[UberTech]

From a technical perspective, and I’m not trying to pitch anything here, the comments about logging everything is a good one. Make sure it is in clear view of the tech, keeping to yourself is only feeding your own anger. If I were to see a list of problems next to a machine I would almost immediately tell the rep and the service manager and pull a meeting.

I wouldn't say they are deliberately trying to drive your business into the ground. The problem with new machines is it takes 18 months before you can actually work out how to fix it! Also with new machines, I have found anyway, the boffins who have designed it have made it harder and harder for technicians to fix problems. Early models gave us access to High voltage settings, laser powers, CCD settings all sorts of things that an experience tech could tweak either way to get a result. Now you are very limited as the gurus probably think that those settings upset the balance of the machine so have removed them.

This is for any model, xerox’s I have worked on are the same majestic, regal, DC12 each had less and less I could do to get the result, your hands are tied. The c6500 also has settings removed that the c500 had.

The best plan of action, along with logging is to be specific about your problems. Gross generalisations like ‘the whole machine is a piece of crap’ helps no one. Write down your specific problems on a list. Call in your rep and service manager together and set time frames to have each of them resolved. Book a review meeting with both of them in a fortnight and every fortnight until everything is resolved. If they refuse you are in a good position pull the customer neglect line and build a significant case.

 

[Craig]

Well said Uber!

My experience with the techs are they DO NOT want to be at your shop on a daily basis! My old tech that had to work on our CLC4000 ABSOLUTELY HATED being at my shop 3 to 4 days a week. He was one of the driving factors to get Canon to replace it the first time. Your Tech can and should be your best friend, the sales rep, sales manager and service manager are the evil ones!!!

 

[simpleprint]

The best plan of action, along with logging is to be specific about your problems. Gross generalisations like ‘the whole machine is a piece of crap’ helps no one. Write down your specific problems on a list. Call in your rep and service manager together and set time frames to have each of them resolved. Book a review meeting with both of them in a fortnight and every fortnight until everything is resolved. If they refuse you are in a good position pull the customer neglect line and build a significant case.

Agreed. Though, gross generalizations help when they are supplemented by stipulations.

For example, it's every bit as much the Customer's responsibility to be and make clear what the intent is to be for a given machine.

When we sat down with Canon distributor to discuss our C7000VP imagePress they did the smile and nod routine...six months later...they complained how we run through toner/developer supplies and that we were running it on 13" X 19".

To use an analogy, they sold us an original Hummer with a 60 caliber cannon on the back and figured we'd use it like a limo.

Gross generalization: "This machine's a worthless piece of crap."
Stipulations: "However, if we use it this way, as we said we would during our initial discussions also well within the CED's listed parameters...it proves most beneficial."

All too frequently, Sales Reps forget the support they promised. All too frequently, Sales Reps stand behind the big machines, but to hide from keeping up their end of the bargain.

So the next time we're in the market for purchasing a machine, we'll be doing our best to document everything from first handshake to last handshake. Nowadays, my two favorite questions to ask are, "May I quote you on what you just said and will you personally stand behind it?"

 

[kslight]

When I started at the place I'm at now they didn't keep good/reliable records and when I took over I changed it so we take better records than Xerox... I take records per call, per call in time, if its a repeat problem, what the problem is, what time the tech gets here, what time they leave, the meter, if the problem is fixed...et cetera. My level of documentation has supported us through two like for likes and several extensive service issues, because Xerox regional knows that we have enough on them to get what they owe us.

 

[mattbeals]

Having helped in several different lawsuits in different industries the one thing that I can say is an absolute truism is this; "He who has the most documentation wins". If you document the hell out of the problem it's pretty hard to deny.

 

[gastonpresente]

I believe that a number of years ago the Chromapress Users Association sued Agfa. Is there a Canon users group? There's often more power in groups than in individuals when it comes to resolving issues.

best, gordon p

Gordon,

Too bad now that Agfa sold Chromapress, would me nice to sue. haha
Jokes aside, im trying to make our Chromapress work again, without Agfa´s help for obvious reasons.

First task: Cutter Blade
Second Task: Tower Fan
Third Task: cylinders

Any suggestions?

 

[ShortRunMagazines]

I did sue my service provider...

I did sue my service provider...

Long story short...
A certain brand new 65 page a minute digital machine was released 3-4 years ago and I foolishly bought one... (The second install in the state.) 5-6 months later, after printing 4 calibration sheets at the same time and yet each sheet had a unique color tone, I kicked the tech out of the office and called the lawyer. (In the six months we had the unit, I had over 150 service calls.)

In hindsight I would have been substantially better off stopping payment and letting them repo the machine... They got their lawyers involved and ended up bankrupting the company in the 2 year legal battle to follow. (Not to mention MAJOR STRESS on my part.)

In hindsight, if you are going to sue, sue quickly, they would rather take the unit back in the begining of the contract cycle and reverse the sale then wait six months of "trying to fix it". If they can't fix an issue in 3-4 calls, demand they remove the unit. If they cant fix it now, chances are it will be the same next week...

Between the legal fees, the hard dollar losses, and the down-time, we lost about $135,000.

 

[Printservedigital]

I am a small all-digital printer.

My main production press is a CANON 6000VP.

IT IS DOWN ALL THE TIME - often for multiple days. My business is being destroyed by the incompetance of Canon's technicians, their service managers and their inability to get parts. I am missing deadlines every day.

Has anyone filed suit against a digital press manufacturer for non-performance or excessive downtime? Do we have options to recourse for their horrible service? They don't seem to care that they are putting me out of business.

I appriciate any advice that you can offer.

Luckily in the UK we have a "Sale of goods ACT" which entitles the purchaser to make a claim when a product is "not fit for purpose"

Downtime or inoperation of the press might come under that provided you could prove the fault lay with the press rather than inability to operate.

 

[Julio]

I agree with documenting problems, its come in handy a few times for us. We have a different model Canon and have excellent support from our Canon dealer - the technicians, service managers and sales rep. We also have a Xerox and have excellent support from their technicians, service managers and sales rep.

Currently we have poor support for our Prinergy and Trendsetter. Although Kodak bought Creo a few years ago they have done nothing to improve support. Their technicians have a lot of trouble resolving problems for known hardware issues. Too many managers are completely ineffective and some could care less........down time just doesn't matter.